Jealousy Isn’t the Enemy with Dr. Joli Hamilton

In this episode, PolySoCal welcomes Dr. Joli Hamilton, a depth psychologist, relationship coach, and AASECT - certified sex educator whose doctoral research focuses on jealousy and consensual non monogamy. The panel explores what jealousy actually is, how it shows up in the body, and why the healthiest long-term approach is not suppression or immediate reframing, but naming it, understanding its “flavor,” and building tools for emotional regulation.

Dr. Joli introduces practical concepts like nervous system grounding, regular relationship check-ins, the power dynamic between experienced and newer partners, the difference between jealousy and envy, and the importance of a “jealousy rescue plan.” The episode also dives into the eroticization of jealousy, including why it can be powerful when done safely and why it can be dangerous without strong agreements, skills, and a rescue plan.

 Alonzo Banx, Dr. Joli Hamilton, Solara, Captain Lynn, Cookie, Patty, John 

All of my jealousy resources
https://www.jolihamilton.com/jealousyresource

Playing with Fire Podcast
https://creators.spotify.com/pod/profile/joli-hamilton/

Transcript

Alonzo Banx (00:00)
Welcome back to the PolysoCal podcast. I am Alonzo Banks and tonight we have got a guest that I have been waiting to get on this show. I read her bio and I was blown away. The amazing Dr. Jolie Hamilton is with us tonight. We got an awesome round of people. Solara, Captain Lin, Cookie, Patty, John. Hi everybody. Well, welcome everyone. Okay, Dr. Jolie, I got to get through this bio here because man, you've got a background. Okay.

Jon (00:18)
Hello.

Cookie (00:18)
Hello?

Captain Lynn (00:18)
Bye.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (00:19)
Hey.

Alonzo Banx (00:27)
Dr. Jolie Hamilton is a depth psychologist and relationship coach and ASEC certified sex educator and leading voice in consensual non-monogamy. Jolie's doctoral research is in jealousy and non-monogamy. She is the founder of the Year of Opening, a year-long experimental program supporting people through relation and identity transitions with integrity and care. Wow.

Okay, you're also the co-host of

Jon (00:58)
you

Alonzo Banx (00:58)
your own podcast. As you were saying, how many episodes do you have of your own?

Dr. Joli Hamilton (01:02)
we've

recorded 250 now. We're releasing weekly for, now it feels like forever, five years almost. It's been going on.

Alonzo Banx (01:10)
Wow.

Well, been around a whole lot longer than us. And you said how many other guest appearances have you done on shows? Well, we are honored to have you here tonight. Nice. So tonight, we're going to do real quick introduction for everyone. So I'm to go around the table real quick. Sawara, welcome. Say hello.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (01:16)
Over 200 now.

Jealousy needs somebody out there speaking the good word about her. She's not all evil.

Jon (01:24)
Thank

⁓

Solara (01:33)
Hi, happy to be here ⁓ I'm in a partnered relationship Polly ⁓ and Navigating some things that are surprising me with jealousy. Actually, it's unusual and I'm really looking forward to talking about that

Alonzo Banx (01:47)
Welcome. good to have you back. We don't get you on often. Captain Lynn.

Captain Lynn (01:51)
Hi, I'm grateful to be here tonight as well. I also, I've been poly dating. I really been kind of having a dry season for several years and recently called out, put out the word that, I'm ready for my for now lover as I call him, him or her. And then ready to have my beloved show up now. But I recently had my for now lover show up and the conversation about.

Maybe in Pauly it has just happened this week. yeah, there's challenges and I want to be sensitive and still honor my own integrity of who I am and how I want to be in the world. So I am grateful to be in this conversation for that reason as well. Thank you.

Alonzo Banx (02:36)
Well, we are super happy for you and thrilled to have you on. My co-host, Patty. Say hi.

Patty (02:42)
Hi,

I have been in the lifestyle with John for over 30 years, I think like 31 years. We've been polyamorous and we've had some amazing experiences and some experiences that have been challenging, but we've done so much learning and growth. And I feel like ⁓ we have spent a lifetime growing together and appreciating each other.

for all the experiences that we get to allow each other.

Alonzo Banx (03:17)
Thanks for being back tonight. All right, John, jump up.

Jon (03:21)
Hello, John here. ⁓

dating Heather and be my metamor. Again, Patty was mentioning we've been in the lifestyle for a little over 30 years now and still trying to work it out.

Alonzo Banx (03:37)
It's good to have you both here tonight, Cookie. We don't get you on often. It's good to have you here.

Cookie (03:41)
No, I was at the bottom of the list. So now I got to work

my way back

Jon (03:44)
you

Cookie (03:44)
up. ⁓ So I am in a kind of new ⁓ poly relationship with ⁓ my nesting partner.

They've also been on the show quite a bit more than me, so you've probably heard from them a few times before. ⁓ But yeah, we're navigating this. It's kind of new for all of us. We've just had a lot of experience with very monogamous relationships before this, so this has been a very interesting ⁓ experience. for open-minded and open people that we are, we've really been finding some challenges with just so much joy in it.

and I'm actually really excited to learn a little bit more about jealousy. I feel like not enough time has happened to really have, I don't know, the requirements needed to really feel overpowering jealousy, but I'm sure it'll happen at some point, and I hope we'll be ready. So, excited to learn a little bit more about that.

Alonzo Banx (04:42)
I'm thrilled to have you on tonight. Now, Dr. Julie Hamilton, I read the bio, but I have a feeling that doesn't touch the surface.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (04:51)
mean, a bio can only say so much and it, you know, it talks about my professional life. I am also a person who practices polyamory. I've been polyamorous now for 17 years, which feels almost impossible because I still feel like a newbie some days. And then other days I'm like, whoa, this is the years of experience. I feel them on me. ⁓ I'm also a mother to seven adult children. So like they're not children anymore. The last of them turned 18.

Jon (05:01)
you

Dr. Joli Hamilton (05:17)
So that's certainly, we did our non-monogamy experience ⁓ started when my youngest was just a baby. So I feel like it's interesting also to, from that personal perspective, to come in as a parent of many, which is not always the picture people have. I know you all get it. You all get like that anybody might be doing non-monogamy, but often that's the thing that throws people. They're like, sure, doctor it, but like, wait, you have a lot of kids and you still find time to date?

Jon (05:44)
Okay.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (05:45)
That's what

usually throws people.

Captain Lynn (05:47)
Yeah.

Alonzo Banx (05:49)
So did ⁓ the doctor part come before or after?

Dr. Joli Hamilton (05:53)
No, I did the, so I actually screwed up every possible thing I could when I was opening up. I went from a monogamous marriage. I was with my partner from high school. And when I found out about polyamory, like I just like blasted through the wall, like the Kool-Aid man. was like, this is it, I'm in. ⁓ He was not thrilled. I did it all wrong. I, no, no fault of his. Like I just did it so, so badly. And

Jon (05:55)
you

You

Dr. Joli Hamilton (06:21)
my way of figuring out how to do this. So I wound up leaving that marriage. ⁓ Within 45 days, I was living in a triad. It was wild. Like really, just, made so many tactical errors in my life. But my way out of that was to study. I I put myself back in school. got my bachelor's, my first master's, my doctorate and other master's all really trying to figure out how we do relationships.

Jon (06:48)
.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (06:49)
better, like and how all of this, all the struggle that I had gone through could be meaningful somehow. So I turned to psyche. That was my, that was my way out of the wet paper bag that I had put myself in. was a mess.

Jon (07:03)
Okay.

Captain Lynn (07:04)
you

Jon (07:05)
⁓

Alonzo Banx (07:06)
Sounds like quite the journey.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (07:08)
It really was, has been, and it's not over.

Alonzo Banx (07:10)
And it's still on, absolutely. Okay, so who's got some questions with our good doctor tonight?

Captain Lynn (07:12)
Yeah.

Alonzo Banx (07:17)
Yeah, Patty, go ahead.

Patty (07:18)
I have a question since you've done a lot of research on jealousy. ⁓ If you could give somebody newer in polyamory a tangible tool to use in the moment when their feelings are intense to ⁓ diffuse how they're feeling and reframe it, what would that be?

Jon (07:18)
.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (07:43)
Well, you know, I mean, my first go-to is actually not to immediately go to defuse and reframe. Because what I found when I was studying jealousy is that the people who reported the most success over the long term, really working with their jealousy, did a few things before they just tried to shut it down, right? It's tempting. It's a big emotion. It's hard. And either people...

denied that they were feeling jealousy at all, right? Tried to immediately reframe it and say, it's not jealousy, it's, insert some other word, any other word, because God forbid, I should be jealous, right? So I want to first get people to just acknowledge that jealousy isn't the monster that they might imagine it is. It also doesn't make them a bad person. And I'm guessing you all know, like, we can't put jealousy into a ⁓ moral hierarchy. It just doesn't work out.

Jon (08:22)
. Okay.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (08:33)
So before I try to get to diffuse and reframe, I want people to be able to name that they're experiencing jealousy. I want them to be able to talk about the flavor that it has. Like, is it angry flavor jealousy? Is it left out feeling jealousy? Is it grief feeling jealousy? Like, what are the other feelings there? And just

kind of like widen their scope a little and kind of soften into, OK, it's here.

The best tool that I have ever found for working with anybody here is to just name the sensations that are present before they try to get into the cognitive reframe, right? Because what I found is when we be people jump to that cognitive reframe, they miss out on the opportunity to just recognize jealousy really early in their body. And the earlier you can learn to detect it, the easier it is to work with and to do that reframing and to get away from those distortions that can happen. Right. So

It's actually a more base level skill. The first thing I'd have them do is just really get comfortable with naming, ⁓ I'm feeling a twisting in my gut. I'm feeling a punch. I'm feeling heat. My hands are clenching like I want a punch. I want to scratch. Whatever they're feeling in their body, name that. From there, we could talk about some nervous system tools to just cool the nervous system off a little bit, bring them back into their window of capacity, their window of choice.

So it's really about that for me. And we can also talk about reframes, but I feel like that needs to be a skill that we bring in after we've learned to identify what's going on in our body at a more root level.

Captain Lynn (10:03)
I guess, can I ask a question? I would love your advice for how to, know, this man that's new to my life and he's, you know, he's on the path for his enlightenment and done a lot of work, but this Polly conversation is new. And we've had some conversations, but I'm very curious what your advice would be at this phase. Cause I'm coming in with the years of experience like you speak and the rest of the crowd. And he has.

none and he's wanting to be authentically himself and I want to nurture what's there because he's really a beautiful man. What would be your recommendation?

Dr. Joli Hamilton (10:36)
Yeah.

So I work with this dynamic pretty frequently because I'm often working with people who either are both new, but one has like high initiatory energy. They're like, let's do non-monogamy and the other's like, yeah, not so much. Or somebody who has a lot more experience and somebody who has no experience. The very first thing I want to acknowledge is there's a power differential here, right? Like, so my question to you would be,

Jon (10:45)
you you

Dr. Joli Hamilton (11:06)
have you had some conversations about how this impacts the creation of your relationship? Is there space to talk about how your experience could potentially sort of drive the conversation as if there's a correct way to do polyamory or to feel polyamory? Like, could you accidentally get yourself into that position of being like the mentor? And the best tool I know of to get out of that is

has he leaned into other community? Is he connecting with more people about this topic? And sometimes when a person's dating someone who's really good at it already, they're like, you just like, just tell me how's this supposed to work? But that doesn't actually help us feel like, I'm empowered from my own stance. So I'd encourage him to really broaden his community. Of course, also to listen to a variety of podcasts, a variety.

Jon (11:32)
.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (11:58)
of other people just talking about their experience, like for instance, the normalizing non-monogamy podcast where it's just, you know, stories of people who've done their non-monogamy a long time and let him sort of warm himself rather than you have to be in that position of power. Does that make sense?

Captain Lynn (12:15)
I love that. Yes. And I had not thought about the power dynamic, but I had a sense of it. was like, I feel like I have to keep coming back and checking in and going, okay, this happened. I felt like you didn't tell me the whole story. I sensed there was something not shared, even though we would agree to share experiences, but he's not used to that. His normality is to not share the details. He doesn't trust that I'm going to be okay with it.

Jon (12:36)
you

Dr. Joli Hamilton (12:40)
Right, right. So of course, the next tool I would suggest would be to plan in at least some regular check-ins. So it's not just, know, people who are practicing monogamy for a long time often have a habit of only talking about the relationship when it's going badly. It's like problem-oriented or they'll wait until they're in therapy and they'll box everything up for that. So just introducing that basic tool of do we have some kind of regular check-in?

area of the day or the week or the month, whatever fits the cadence for your relating so that he has a place in time where he's expecting to bring up feelings without there being any judgment. Nothing has to be wrong to bring up how he's feeling or what he's struggling with or questions that he has, which also offers you a chance to, again, get on that horizontal level instead of having that sense of like,

he's coming to me almost like a teacher-student relationship. ⁓ It'll also keep things sexier in my experience. Because I often have that dynamic like with newer, newer partners, right?

Captain Lynn (13:42)
All right.

Yeah, yeah. Excellent. Thank you. I love that advice.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (13:49)
Nice.

Alonzo Banx (13:49)
I'm looking around there so many like smiling nodding faces listening to the dr. Jolie talk. Yeah cookie go ahead

Jon (13:50)
you

Huh.

Cookie (13:56)
Yeah, I've got a question. ⁓ So I read your paper on your study of jealousy and somatic responses. I thought that was super interesting actually to go through, but it kind of made me curious. And maybe you've done some work and might have some kind of insight on this. do you think there are certain kinds of maybe ⁓ personal narratives or like personality traits that might

Jon (13:57)
.

Cookie (14:22)
kind of predispose someone?

to a certain type of response of jealousy or certain of those categorized somatic responses, could you tie those responses to a certain personality type in certain people? Do you feel like this is kind of hardwired into people or do you feel like there's some movement to kind of change your response? How core is that?

Dr. Joli Hamilton (14:46)
So I think the answer is a strong yes and, right? I think that, well, first off, jealousy, we have strong evidence that jealousy is hardwired as in we can spot it in infants as young as six months old, right? Infants have a reaction. I could outline what the whole experiment was that they did to establish that, but it's pretty clear. Plus we all know it. We've seen it. Like toddlers have jealousy. So we know that it's there, but when you're talking about like that, that predisposition to like, how does the jealousy manifest?

Jon (14:50)
you

Dr. Joli Hamilton (15:15)
And for some people, their jealousy threshold is like, yeah, actually it's pretty easy. In fact, I'm married to one. Like, he just doesn't experience jealousy to the same degree I do. I feel it like a fire that burns me with a thousand white hot suns. And this is my profession. Like, this is what I do and I still feel it. He doesn't feel it that way. He feels it, but it's different. So I think at that point we have to think, okay, so the human experience.

predisposes all of us to having the possibility of jealousy arise. But we can't decontextualize that. So first I want to look at what's my history? Do I have a secure sense of attachment? Historically, not just in this relationship, but historically, do I have a trauma history? What was the narrative around jealousy if there was one in all of my previous relationships? Because all of this together,

will add up. I've met so many people who say that they don't believe that they're jealous until they're in just the right context that sets everything off. And they're like, ⁓ I have no skills or tools. If they can admit that they're jealous, they're still stuck because they weren't taught what to do when they're jealous. I want to have everyone have multiple tools available to themselves.

Jon (16:09)
Okay. You

Dr. Joli Hamilton (16:37)
Because like if I have if I have say an anxious history where I tend to be hyper vigilant And I'm always watching right like that's the kind of person we expect will experience jealousy, right? What about my more avoidant types who feel like no, don't feel jealousy. I don't it's not a problem at all because up till now Whenever something jealousy like has shown up. They've just run away from it or turned away or compartmentalized

It doesn't mean at some point it won't show up. when it does, they need to actually have a ⁓ really clear understanding that jealousy isn't always going to look like their anxiously attached partner. Their jealousy might look like shutting down, like trying to end a relationship, like having no feelings at all or numbness. So I think this is about expanding our understanding of how complex jealousy is.

and really letting ourselves have that, let it be that messy so that we can talk about it from multiple directions. Instead of, it kind of gets pigeonholed and gets like one narrative.

Cookie (17:36)
I feel a little bit called out with the avoidant thing. I definitely, guilty. And yeah, I'm that person who's like, yeah, no, I'm not jealous. Everything's fine. And something will come up and I'll just have like a moment of, ⁓ what was that? What should I do with that? So I appreciate that. I appreciate that perspective. Thank you.

Jon (17:40)
Yeah. you ⁓

Patty (17:40)
Thank

Dr. Joli Hamilton (17:42)
Welcome to the party! There's plenty of room. ⁓

Alonzo Banx (17:53)
You

Jon (17:57)
Okay.

Alonzo Banx (18:01)
So, Larry, you had something you wanted to add or question.

Solara (18:03)
Yes, I do. ⁓ Two things. One is I have, you know, in my

life, I've thought, why do people think love is limited? Why? Like, I haven't experienced jealousy until recently. But the bar of the partnership that I'm in is extraordinary. Like, this is the man of my life, you know, the love of my life kind of thing.

So there's that and, you know, having done some reading, he's poly by orientation, who doesn't even think like I think because I'm poly by choice. So we're navigating that. So that's one set. And the other thing is list of questions for your future check-ins. Like, do you have like a half dozen or something like that?

Dr. Joli Hamilton (18:49)
Yeah. Okay. I'm to answer that in reverse because I love a good pragmatic question. I love having ⁓ a few options for relationship check-ins. I teach something in the year of opening called the three relationship meeting menu because one of the... If you've listened to the Multi-Amory podcast, you know the most common check-in that people will talk about in polyamory is the radar. I love radar. It's an acronym. It's beautiful, but it's kind of...

Jon (18:52)
you

Solara (18:52)
Perfect.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (19:17)
a lot. So I think if you're ready to dig in and have like a two hour plus check-in meeting with your partner, use Radar. Dediker, Emily and Jace did a great job. They've outlined it. It's beautiful. You can find it on Multi-Amory. But I teach a three meeting menu, a 15 minute meeting, a 30 minute meeting, and a 90 minute meeting. And it sounds a little rigid to some people when they're starting off, but it's really just about framing it.

You don't need so much a specific set of questions as what's the scope of this meeting? Are we doing a quick check-in? So I think about Captain Lin's question. think what if you just had a 15-minute standing check-in, like twice a week, just for, and they might have two custom questions that they answer for themselves. They come up with together, heck, you can ask Chad GPT for a little help with that. You might customize those questions. What's most likely to really get to the root for us?

If you don't know the scope of the check-in, check-ins start to become onerous. Like, I just don't want them. I don't want to go to it. So really my advice is drill down and figure out what are the couple of questions that will really work for your situation and then frame out how long is this meeting? Like, what are we trying to accomplish here? And from there, it'll be much easier to have your check-ins. And there are some brilliant ones out there as well. Some brilliant, beautiful questions. okay, second part, but now.

I loved the first part of your question because yeah, please.

Solara (20:41)
And can I just tell you one more thing, please?

Both of us are the vast majority secure attachment and we're exceptional communicators, beautiful hearts toward each other. And we do what Gottman says, bidding extraordinarily well.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (20:50)
Great.

Excellent. Awesome. Okay. So you've got strong ability to bid for connection. You already have secure connection and I can hear it in your voice. There's a relaxedness, like your voice isn't squeaky. You're not up talking. Like I can hear your calm talking about this partner. But you did mention that there are differences in how you approach polyamory. So one of the things that stood out to me right away is when we...

Solara (21:17)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (21:27)
When somebody comes in with an orientation of poly, which I actually identify that way myself, I see myself as polyamorous by orientation. However, I experience really high jealousy. I just want to make clear, those two things can go together. Sometimes people imagine that if you're like naturally polyamorous, you just won't experience jealousy. That is just not the truth. I've had conversations with hundreds and hundreds of people. And it really can go together, but

Jon (21:37)
.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (21:55)
Often what happens is somebody who is experiencing a lack of jealousy, like they just don't think about love that way, right? The biggest growth area they can have is to recognize that that's just a lucky lottery ticket for them. That's all that is. They didn't do anything to get there. It's like being tall in a society that likes for people to be tall. And because I feel like what happens in many people's communities especially is

We sort of look to the people who don't feel jealousy as our teachers, our guides, like, how do you do it? No way, don't do that. Look at the people who struggle with jealousy, but handle it really well anyways. That's where we want to focus on, like, so what are they doing? In my studies, what I found is people who just didn't feel jealousy often had kind of a low tolerance for their partner needing reassurance.

Solara (22:36)
Hmm.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (22:47)
a low tolerance for their partner needing clarity of expectation and agreements because they're like, you should just be calm if you just relax, if you just felt compersion. But they just don't have the same lived experience. So it's a little bit like asking somebody who has no trauma history to just, you know, understand

Solara (22:56)
time.

Jon (23:04)
.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (23:05)
what it's like to grow up in a body that's had trauma and is hypervigilant. Like, we're just not going to see the world the same way. So the place where the growth can really happen is in

the low jealousy person really being patient with the learning. Like, what is my partner experiencing without demonizing it and seeing if we can develop some understanding of each other's experience? We don't want to privilege jealousy either because we definitely don't want to do the mononormative thing of like, jealousy is good and we want it in our relationships. Like, that's not helpful. But in the middle zone,

is this well differentiated, flexible, resilient sense of, let's talk about jealousy as if it's just a regular emotion, like being sad. Sometimes you're sad. And if you can do that, so if you're in a relationship with a person and you have a secure connection and they're able to listen to your experiences of jealousy without judgment, over time, the experience of jealousy will change. I told you, I experienced like,

Jon (24:00)
you

Dr. Joli Hamilton (24:09)
really intense jealousy. But in my anchor partnership, it is so different now than it ever was because we have now years of practice with him listening, being patient, and helping me somatically work through the jealousy. So I have very little jealousy in that context, but take me

Jon (24:17)
you

Dr. Joli Hamilton (24:28)
into another one. There's the jealousy again, because it's still a part of my experience. So, Solara, I would say

I guess my question back for you is what are your conversations with your partner about jealousy? Are they generous to both perspectives or is there a little like, we got to get this to go away?

Solara (24:45)
No, it's

deep, it's rich, and it's like we don't understand that part of each other's mind, but respect it, appreciate it, and want to support it. So we're there, but it's something that I've been operating, not understanding the difference between orientation and choice for two and a half years. And then a third party came in and I went like,

Dr. Joli Hamilton (24:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Solara (25:12)
All the things he'd been saying to me after I'd done the research on poly by orientation versus choice became clear. And I'm like, we just speak a different language.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (25:22)
Yeah, yeah. that language, for some people, that language can, I'm so glad that you're saying you are talking about it with respect. Because the biggest problem point I see is when people aren't being respected, where jealousy becomes this moral failing. And now the person who's experiencing jealousy is being talked down to, or most commonly being told, just be compulsive. Just feel compersion as if you can.

Solara (25:31)
Mm-hmm.

Jon (25:46)
.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (25:49)
as if you can squeeze that out of a pastry bag. It's like, that's not how we do that. ⁓ So if you're not doing that, then patience, honestly, Solara, like immense patience and potentially, so my next move, if both people in a particular partnership are open to it, you could do somatic support for each other around jealousy, but you could also talk about, think about whether you want to do any erotic exploration of jealousy.

because the eroticization of jealousy works really well for some people. Other people hate it. But one option is to see whether you can, as the person who's experiencing jealousy, whether you can convert any of that energy into some erotic energy and whether you enjoy that. And if you do, then it might start to take a different tone and flavor. It's about 30 % of my research participants enjoy that flavor of jealousy. So it's not everybody, but I do want to mention it.

Solara (26:45)
I love that and would you direct me to a particular book that you've read written or a podcast or you know something like that?

Dr. Joli Hamilton (26:53)
Yeah, I think my jealousy resource page is probably the best option there. So if you go to my website, joleyhamilton.com forward slash jealousy resources or just navigate through, there's a whole page and on there I have a couple of podcast episodes on it, which are a nice easy entry. And I've also, I have a jealousy master class out there where I talk about that. And we're actually planning for an Eros of jealousy class this coming year, sometime in 2026, because really.

The erotics of jealousy are just an area of sexual shadow work. And it's juicy, juicy stuff, well worth exploring. But it's also deep work and highly activating work. So it is worth doing in a titrated manner, right? Like we don't want to rush ourselves into it.

Solara (27:37)
Beautiful. Thank you so much. This is deep and rich. I really appreciate what you're bringing to the table here.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (27:42)
I'm so glad.

Alonzo Banx (27:44)
John, I see that you got your hand up, but I got to go back to something fundamental. and Dr. Lee, you keep throwing out this poly by choice, poly by orientation.

Jon (27:52)
you

Alonzo Banx (27:53)
Explain that to me.

Jon (27:54)
Mm hmm. Okay. ⁓

Dr. Joli Hamilton (27:55)
Well, how I use this, I actually have three categories that I'll use. So poly by choice for me means a person understands the frameworks, the philosophy behind it, and makes a decision to practice non-monogamy. They don't have to. They could be happy. They might also consider themselves ambiamorous, where they could be happy in a monogamous or non-monogamous scenario. And then I have my bi-orientation, where I'm like, well,

you could, I could,

You can't take this out of me. It's endemic to my being. It's part of my identity, yes, but it's also like, sure, I practiced monogamy for 17 years, but as soon as I learned the word polyamory, I was like, ⁓ I was never monogamous. I just didn't have the words for it. That's often how an orientation person will. I also add the third category of ⁓ polyamorous by philosophy because some people are like, I...

Jon (28:28)
you you

Dr. Joli Hamilton (28:52)
get the philosophy, I feel grounded in it, like it makes sense to me. And yet I really struggle with practicing

Jon (28:52)
⁓

Dr. Joli Hamilton (28:58)
it and I'm not sure I want to practice it. And that can be a really tough place for someone to sit because they're like, everything in my prefrontal cortex wants to adhere to this philosophical way of being because it makes sense to me. But my body does not seem to want to get on board and I don't understand what's going on there.

And so that can be a pretty tricky spot to navigate. And for a lot of people, that's going to require a lot more patience than they may want because they just want to go have fun. So that's how I think of those categories.

Alonzo Banx (29:27)
Thank you, that works. John, sorry to put off your question there. Please go ahead.

Jon (29:30)
Yeah, no worries. ⁓ So you brought up the eroticism, making it erotic, ⁓ the jealousy. And ⁓ I feel like that's something that Patty and I and our other partners sometimes play with a little bit, I think. I'm just making some assumptions because I'm not entirely clear on what that actually looks like. And I have always found it to be kind of ⁓ a dangerous game to play in a way. Like, I don't know.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (29:37)
Yeah.

Jon (29:58)
if necessarily it makes sense to do that and stuff or whatever. So I would love a little bit of a ⁓ more of a definition about what that looks like and what makes it safe and what makes it possibly unsafe. I'm curious if I'm in the right place there.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (30:12)
yeah. mean, I'm actually, I'm so glad you asked because this is an area where often people will try to, they'll jump over the basic skill building around jealousy and want to jump to that. Like, let's just make it hot. If you're jealous, like let's just treat it as a kink. ⁓ hold on. So in my framework, I work with the jealousy roadmap. I did not invent the jealousy roadmap, by the way. It came out of my research. Like people were already doing this. I just, I just codified it. I wrote down the things people were doing. ⁓

Jon (30:23)
Hmm.

Thank you

Dr. Joli Hamilton (30:40)
And so

in that roadmap, we're looking to name jealousy. We're looking to notice the sensations. Then we want to like figure out what the narrative is in our jealousy and then navigate through our needs and like our agreements and all of that stuff. And then we can nurture compersion. Right? So there's the roadmap. I think of the eroticization of jealousy being a good thing to maybe consider playing with after you've got a really good handle on the first four steps.

If you can't name your jealousy, notice it in your body, figure out, like, understand what your narrative of jealousy is and, where it's rooted in your life, both in your childhood and in your early romantic relationships, and then also make clear, explicit agreements with your partners and get those needs met. If you can't do those things, jumping right to the eroticization is going to just be like pouring kerosene on a fire. Like, it's super, super dangerous.

I do find that it is, however, really, really luscious. if we could just pause it for a moment, a really, a secure base, right, where we have clear agreements between partners. There is that sense, that felt sense of security, even though the jealousy might bring up these times where I'm feeling quite insecure and scared and overwhelmed. And I also have enough understanding of myself

and my history to know I can play in my sexual shadow. ⁓ In other words, if you're like doing massive trauma recovery right now, it's not the moment. It's not the moment. Like, so if we had all that going, then we could do the fun stuff. The fun stuff is gonna look like getting in there and understanding what the story of jealousy is for you and how does it move through my body. And let's say I'm feeling that like punch to the gut.

That's often people will describe to me they're punch to the gut or twisting of their guts. And if I can feel that sensation, be with it, slow down, maybe do some breath work, and then perhaps try masturbating and find out what happens. Can I move that sensation down into my pelvis safely? Can I allow myself to envision my partner in another scenario?

and move that sensation erotically through my body? Can I slow everything down and hold the tension of this is a secure relationship and I'm feeling this pain of jealousy and play with how that tension is very creative space? You can see how it only works if there's a level of embedded safety in the relationship.

Does that make sense?

Jon (33:09)
Yeah.

Alonzo Banx (33:11)
Patty, see you, but Doc, how do you even go about starting that conversation with your partner?

Dr. Joli Hamilton (33:17)
Yeah, I like the test balloon method first. ⁓ So I will not make it personal first. ⁓ I will test balloon by picking some a story in a movie or something like that where I see jealousy depicted outside of our relationship and kind of poke and like, what do think of that and see what a new partner is feeling about that? Like is this do they demonize jealousy? I want to get to know their actual feelings about jealousy. It's way easier to do with a test balloon question with a new partner.

with an established partner, I think it starts with a really honest conversation about, well, I know we have navigated through the hard parts of jealousy. I would like to try to make it more fun. Would you be interested in playing with that? I know this is risky territory. Are you interested in playing with, this is why my podcast is called Playing With Fire. Are you interested in engaging in that?

with me. And if they're not, then we have to respect that because everybody involved in this play really has to consent because we're talking about playing with your psyche. It's very tender work. And it can happen a million different ways. actually I've worked with people in many different ways. It can happen with masturbation. It can happen with just an imaginal game. It can happen with very small doses or big BDSM scene work. There's a lot of directions we can take it.

Alonzo Banx (34:37)
Thank you.

Patty (34:41)
I find that topic

really fascinating because I know between John, Heather and Bebe and I, we've done a little bit of that. didn't really, excuse me, realize that that's what we were doing in the moment and realized that I do that with John a lot more, but in my head. Like I don't tell him, like if he's with somebody else and he comes back to me.

in my mind, I'm punishing him when I'm, you know, like it is sexy. ⁓ And then, you know, John will say, ⁓ Heather did this better than you. I think he should try harder. But it's very sexy. If he did that with somebody else when I was in a really insecure, jealous head space, it definitely would not go over well with me. It has to be, for me, in my experience when we're doing that, the right person. ⁓

Jon (35:10)
Okay.

Patty (35:36)
I love Heather and she and I are in a relationship. ⁓ so that gives me a lot more freedom, like, and that's more sexy. If it was an outside person, ⁓ it would come off very different for me. I think ⁓ that that time and place is appropriate for us.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (35:58)
Yeah, Patty, I think you're speaking to the fact that we have to take seriously who we are and how much psychological play we really do with different partners, right? Like not every partner is meant to be a deep diver into my psyche. Some of it's just light, some of it's more casual, and sometimes I may not be in a head space to explore with this. I will say that...

I did a recording with August McLaughlin on the Girl Boner Radio podcast. And she asked me to outline how I've done erotic jealousy work. And I actually shared with her a story of a time when I was not in a good headspace, but I decided specifically to do erotic jealousy work. So my experience is I can do it, but it is fucking risky. Like it is very, very dangerous. I would never.

recommend it as like a go-to because what had to happen was not only I was taking a risk, but my partner was taking a risk with me and he was the one holding the container. And so this required negotiation, a level of depth of skill and a rescue plan. What do we do if this doesn't go well? What's our rescue plan? And if you don't have a jealousy rescue plan now, please dear God have one before you take on eroticizing jealousy because

Patty (36:55)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (37:21)
it's not always going to go well. That said, I think you mentioned something super important, which is a lot of us do this already. We just do it in our heads and we never share with our partners, which means we have an untapped resource sitting right there, something we're already doing that we could potentially bring into the space between us, which deepens our intimacy, deepens our connection, and also brings a level of transparency, right? If I am...

playing with my jealousy, but never telling my partner that that's what I'm doing. There is the danger that I will accidentally have sort of built an erotic story that feels even more real than their real story, what's actually happening. And I've seen that happen. I felt it in myself too, where I'm like, ⁓ the reason I need to disclose this and work with my partnership is because

I could start building an erotic story that's basically high level BDSM seam work that has just like nothing to do with what my partner's experiencing on the outside. And they have no idea that I need aftercare. They don't know that they were in a dominant role or that I was like, they don't know what was happening or that they were in a submissive role. Like you said, if I'm the one that's coming in all aggressive and I'm totally like negating some of the consent levels that I really want to have to take this to a deeper level.

Jon (38:33)
you

Dr. Joli Hamilton (38:41)
But I do think a lot of us are already doing it at a subtle level. So it's really like,

Jon (38:44)
you

Dr. Joli Hamilton (38:46)
it's like the next step of making this visible, bringing it from the unconscious, like Dr. Deb would have said, bringing that material from unconscious to conscious awareness, like that's, it's a big relationship step. It's awesome.

Alonzo Banx (38:57)
Did I answer that for you, Patty? Cookie, Cookie, you had something you wanted to do.

Patty (38:58)
Yes, thank you so much for that.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (39:00)
Yeah, thanks for bringing it up and being so transparent.

Cookie (39:03)
Yeah,

kind of going off of that. I am uneducated. I don't know what a jealousy rescue plan at all looks like, to be perfectly frank. What is that? How do you decide what that is? What at a minimum needs to be included in that?

Dr. Joli Hamilton (39:17)
Okay, I want everybody to have a jealousy rescue plan. Even people who say that they don't get jealous because they actually need one even more because when jealousy finally shows up, I mean, they're not dead yet. If jealousy shows up, they're not going to see it coming, right? So what I teach, yeah, exactly, right? Like we need this. What I teach is I want you to have a jealousy rescue plan small enough to fit on a post-it note. I do not want it to be elaborate, right? When I'm working with somebody who's,

Cookie (39:31)
Here I am.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (39:44)
is newer to non-monogamy. I want your jealousy rescue plan to be small enough to be on the screen of your phone, like tight. I also want you to take multiple aspects of being a human into account, right? So I wanna tap into the senses. What is something that you can do? And you're gonna pick three things. Some people will pick four. say, one thing that I can do with my physical body. So I might choose a box breathing or four, eight breathing.

One thing that I can, or I might choose dancing in my kitchen or a particular stretch, or I use a lot of neuro-somatic intelligence drills. I'll choose that, right? There's something I can do with my body. There's item one. Item two, my favorite. Everybody should have a jealousy rescue playlist. If you don't have a ⁓ jealousy rescue playlist, get one. Whatever music app you use, you wanna put your jealousy rescue playlist, label it. I actually have one on my jealousy resources page. It's actually a whole bunch of songs.

I like to listen to songs that name jealousy, but some people are going to want lullabies. Like your jealousy rescue playlist is going to be unique to you. I like to listen to songs that remind me that jealousy is universal, that people have it, they experience it, and it doesn't scare me as much that way. So I want everybody to have that rescue playlist. I'll put that on. I'll start doing those embodied movements. I also want to have on my rescue playlist at least one affirmation.

So the affirmation, like I could imagine Solara, given their description of how they are working with jealousy, like grounding into that secure relationship that they know they have with their partner and having an affirmation that really grounds into that. But for somebody who say maybe newer to polyamory or who is just the Captain Lin, like your partner may not, like they may not feel like you're in that spot yet. They might have an affirmation statement that's grounding into this jealousy is here and I am not afraid to experience it.

I can hold this sensation in my body without collapsing. It could just be that simple. And then I like to put a fourth piece on, which is who can I call? Who's my go-to call? And you might need to have a few people down, somebody who is not going to prioritize and privilege monogamy and monogamous jealousy responses. So they don't have to be polyamorous, but they have to be educated enough to know all feelings are just feelings. Somebody who's not going to say, yeah, your partner's bad. That's just going to make it worse.

So those are the four things I like to put on and again, keep it tight. Don't make it super elaborate.

Cookie (42:05)
Nice, okay, thank you.

Alonzo Banx (42:06)
So, doctor, let me flip this for minute. Do you have any questions for any of our cast?

Dr. Joli Hamilton (42:10)
Absolutely. Okay. I have the question of like, so I'm talking about all this jealousy stuff and I'm curious about in your communities, how is jealousy talked about right now? Cause I know I live in the New England area and 17 years ago, was like persona non grata. Like jealousy was not, you were supposed to just not feel it. Um, it's gotten better, but how is jealousy talked about in your, in your communities?

I see cut some hands up.

Captain Lynn (42:35)
You know, pick who gets

Alonzo Banx (42:36)
John,

see you, Captain Lin's hand went up quick.

Captain Lynn (42:36)
it. Yeah, yeah, because I do want to answer that just kind of as a check in with you. For me, jealousy, I call it an afgo, another fucking growth opportunity. So I love when those feelings is kind of powerful. You know, I used to call them negative feelings. I'm going to I'm going to change that now just because of this dialogue. But it's my opportunity to look inside like, why is that coming up?

Jon (42:37)
Mm-hmm.

the

Captain Lynn (43:04)
What do I need to know about myself and go deeper? I see my shadows when that stuff comes up. And that's my journey. I want to level my life up. So having something that triggers it is beautiful. So that's really how I handle it and how I speak to it with those that I'm coaching. But I am curious how others do that.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (43:23)
I love that so much.

Alonzo Banx (43:26)
John?

Jon (43:26)
Yeah, for me, I always kind of compare it to a check engine light on my car that something's up and it should take a little bit of investigation to see what's going on. know, just don't throw oil at it. maybe you'd plug that little thing in to find out what the messages are and stuff, whatever, and see what's going on. And that's something that I try to bring up. But Patty and I host a E &M discussion group that we're actually doing a jealousy one tomorrow. So.

I'm really hoping to talk about a lot of this a lot more and stuff, But yeah, that's how I talk about it.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (44:00)
I love that metaphor. It's one of the first things that was offered by my research participants. I heard that metaphor across three participants, like in three interviews. And I'm like, okay, so the community is using that one and it works well. It seems to work well. I'm glad to hear you're using it.

Jon (44:08)
Thank

Hmm.

Alonzo Banx (44:16)
So Laura.

Solara (44:17)
Yes, so I believe the question was, how

is it being talked about in the communities? So I would say I'm in three distinctive communities that are, know, Polly and Ian and oriented. And I would say ⁓ unskilled. You know, it would be great if you could just talk about jealousy the same way you did a metamorph, right? Just matter of factly, right? And have it accepted. And, ⁓ you know, there

Alonzo Banx (44:25)
I there are many things that are falling in as point. And I would say unskilled. It would be great if you could just talk about jealousy the same way you did a metamorph, right? Just matter of fact, right? And have it accepted.

Solara (44:46)
There is a community that's younger. It's like 30 to maybe 50s. And they are the best at it, ⁓ actually. They are the most ⁓ connected. ⁓

And they are, know, sexually, that's not the point. Connection is the point. ⁓ Affection is the point. ⁓

community is the point and that's their skill set. think Wyatt Worley, you know, it's not a big deal in that particular community.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (45:21)
I so appreciate hearing this. I asked, I know it's a loaded question, but I asked because I a history of asking people, like, has anybody ever had like any teaching around jealousy outside? Like, did any of your parents ever tell you about this? Anybody sit down with you and like, I'm seeing shape, I'm seeing nodding heads. Did anybody tell you when you were a teenager, like, this is how we deal with jealousy. Anybody intervene? In all my years, I've had one person out of thousands, one person said, yep.

Alonzo Banx (45:23)
I know it's a little depressing, I ask because I have a good feeling about it.

Solara (45:38)
Mm-mm.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (45:51)
My mom was a therapist and she absolutely talked to me about jealousy. And I find that, and she was under 30, by the way. So I think like the younger generation is getting higher EQ. But I think that speaks to the point that the, because we didn't have the skills going into our non-monogamy of jealousy, we hadn't normalized. There is no cultural normalization of jealousy. Even the APA, the American Psychological Association, still defines jealousy on their own damn website as

quote unquote, a negative emotion, blah, blah, blah, blah. And there's the rest of it. It doesn't define anger that way. It doesn't define sadness that way. Jealousy is a special case. So we have a cultural shadow around it. So I'm glad to hear that you all are starting to understand that talking about jealousy in a non-demonizing way, in a way that like opens the conversation. Cause to Salara's point, yeah, we need to be able to talk about it. That's what makes a difference. And I work.

I work with people all over the age bracket from 22 to 80 right now. If we normalize jealousy, all the rest of the non-monogamy work gets easier. But when we make it in our community as a thing, it's like, well, the cool kids don't feel jealousy. like if we do that, it's just so, it's accidental, but it's such a bummer because it really doesn't work out.

Alonzo Banx (47:10)
John.

Jon (47:12)
Yeah, so we have this, we have this EMM discussion coming up tomorrow. And ⁓ I love the idea of like helping to like teach jealousy in a different way and stuff, whatever. But is there anything else too that you think is important to get out there that we have an opportunity to share?

Dr. Joli Hamilton (47:29)
Yeah, my other big ask would be, can everybody differentiate jealousy from envy? Do you know the difference? Because if you don't, like we're going to wind up using the wrong tools. So jealousy is always a triangle, right? There's myself. If I'm the jealous one, there's myself as the jealous one, my beloved or valued other and the perceived interrupter. Envy is I want what someone else has. I want to be who they are. And when we sort those two out from a depth of psychological perspective,

Alonzo Banx (47:46)
whether they're valued other enough to see it as a product. And if I want to see what someone else has, I want to see who they are. And when we look at the quality of my deficit and obviously the cost,

Dr. Joli Hamilton (47:58)
Those are two very different beasts because envy is a wound to myself. Jealousy is a problem within a relationship. And most of my clients over the years, jealousy and envy show up at the same time, but they're actually differentiated emotional experiences.

Alonzo Banx (47:58)
those are two very different things. I think that's a very way to help. Jealousy is a problem within our business. And most of my clients over the years, jealousy and envy show up at the same time. But they're actually differentiated in most cases.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (48:15)
And so they get all glopped together. And then we glopped them together in our language too, cause we'll just say like, my God, I'm so jealous of your new shoes, you know, and that's not, that's envy. ⁓

The reason I teach that really, really early in all my processes is so that people start really understanding, ⁓ when I feel envious, I need to work on myself, my understanding of am I enough? Do I have what I want? Can I perceive myself as worthy? You'll note that that gets right to the heart of the insecurity issues in a different way than if I'm perceiving jealousy, as in I'm perceiving a threat, right? Like I feel like whether it's real or I have just...

cooked it up in my imagination, because I can do that too. If I'm perceiving a threat, that's a different kind of insecurity. Now, what's the insecurity baked in? Like, is that because I don't actually have agreements with this partner? Is that because I'm new to polyamory and I don't yet have a belief system or any lived experience that love can actually be exponential and can be multiplicitous? I need to sort those two emotions out for people.

over and over and over again. When I'm working with people often it's in their second or third year that they finally are like, right now I'm actually envious. I'm actually envious right now that my partner has a partner that is really meeting their needs. I'm not actually jealous of my metamor. I'm envious of my partner. Those are two totally different problems. That jealousy of I'm afraid my partner will go away versus, ⁓ they are having an easier time dating than I.

So that's the other big thing that I ask people to like bring it to the community, have that conversation and over and over again, because it takes time because we have to change our language around it. And please do teach the jealousy rescue plan. Like I've been teaching it for years. It's a great skill. I teach it in all of my jealousy classes and it's so applicable. Like everybody can do it. And I love sharing my jealousy playlists with my partners so that if they see me freaking out, they can just quietly put it on in the background. That's fine.

Solara (49:50)
Yeah.

Captain Lynn (49:56)
Hmm.

Alonzo Banx (49:58)
Yeah.

Jon (50:06)
Okay. Okay.

Alonzo Banx (50:19)
I would love to go down a deeper conversation on those that with you. Okay, so we're getting near the end of our time. If you have any last questions, Solara, I see I'm going to definitely put you up. Now is a good time to raise your hand, so I'm going to do one more around. But Solara, please.

Solara (50:32)
Yes, so in this younger group that I'm talking about, something I notice besides like the heart centered and the, you know, the connection and the affection is that in this group, men are interested in men and women are interested in women. So it's like the flow is extraordinary and easy. And I'm wondering what you think that has to do with jealousy and not really seeing a lot of it.

Jon (50:46)
Okay.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (50:59)
You know, I think if I were to guess, because we don't have,

I don't believe we have enough data on this yet, but we are seeing numbers, generationally, the numbers of reported expansive sexualities, non-straight cis-heterosexualities are growing. That doesn't mean that we're having more people that way, just more people who understand themselves or who feel safe enough to use that language, right? Having the ability to see yourself at a younger and younger age,

Jon (51:15)
you

Dr. Joli Hamilton (51:29)
through that lens of, don't have to swim

Jon (51:31)
you

Dr. Joli Hamilton (51:32)
up that one mainstream. I can make my life my own. That of course, like it just makes sense to me that from there it becomes easier to allow myself to reconceptualize messy emotions, to allow myself to be in conversation with more kinds of people. And when it comes to bisexuality and pansexuality, I'm by myself.

Alonzo Banx (51:49)
And when it to bisexuality and trans-export, I'm by myself,

Dr. Joli Hamilton (51:55)
I think it really does start to break down the idea that jealousy looks a particular way when you have the experience of like, but I have multiple friends and you're not jealous of them. So my husband

Alonzo Banx (51:55)
I think it really does start to break down the idea that jealousy is a particular race. When you have these kids, like, but I have multiple friends, and you're not, you're jealous of them. But trying

Dr. Joli Hamilton (52:09)
is also bisexual. So for us as two bisexual people together, like the idea of jealousy just sort of being like endemic any time one of us is with somebody of an opposite gender.

Just like it breaks both of our brains. So I think when people are coming from that place of bi and pansexuality, ⁓ have so many stories of this. There's like just ⁓ a native questioning, a self inquiry of like, well, I'm gonna have to just deal with jealousy because I can't go by the rom-com definition of it. I can't be reductive about it. They're being more nuanced in their experience.

Solara (52:24)
Mm-hmm.

Wow, beautiful. Thank you so much.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (52:52)
Hmm.

Alonzo Banx (52:54)
Dr. you're absolutely fascinating

Captain Lynn (52:55)
Okay.

Alonzo Banx (52:57)
and thrilled to have you on tonight. Do me a favor.

Talk about some of your stuff. Where can we find you? How can people... Give me all the links and I'll make sure to put them up on the websites and all that.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (53:05)
Absolutely. I'll give you all the links. The easiest thing, if somebody's listening to this and they're like, ⁓ I clearly need these, go to my website, joleyhamilton.com. Under resources, you will see the jealousy resource. I try to keep everything I have ever published on jealousy. I just keep adding it to that page so you can find it all in one place. Many of my resources

Jon (53:06)
Okay.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (53:25)
are free resources. I do have a couple of master classes that are longer classes where we really dig in ⁓ both to the...

lived experience, what do do when jealousy shows up, but also to the academic side of like, what's behind jealousy? What's its history and what's going on in there? ⁓ And if you like how I talk, then you'd probably enjoy playing with fire my podcast, you can find it on all the major players. It's co hosted with my anchor partner. And it's fun. It's just a fun place where we just question everything. And we look at non monogamy, specifically through a depth psychological lens. So

It has a really nuanced and deeper perspective on many of the issues that sometimes get sort of a surface treatment on shows just because we cover them so fast. and I like to go super deep on every topic.

Jon (54:00)
Okay.

Alonzo Banx (54:14)
You left everyone with too much to think about tonight.

Captain Lynn (54:15)
It's just epic.

Cookie (54:16)
It's too good, it's too good.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (54:18)
Thank you.

Alonzo Banx (54:21)
It has been an absolute honor to have you on tonight. I clearly hope you

will come back again.

Patty (54:26)
Yeah.

Dr. Joli Hamilton (54:27)
I would be more than happy to, anytime, anytime.

Alonzo Banx (54:30)
Dr. Julie Hamilton, Solara, Captain Lin, Cookie, Patty, John. Thank you for another amazing episode tonight. This has been the Polysocal podcast. Come back and check us out again next week. Good night, everybody.

Captain Lynn (54:31)
Can you?

Good night.

Jon (54:43)
Good night.

Patty (54:43)
Good night.

Solara (54:43)
Good night.

Cookie (54:43)
Good night, thank

you.