Love Languages & Attachments with Dr. Joli Hamilton

In this episode, PolySoCal welcomes back Dr. Joli Hamilton for a deeper conversation about love languages, attachment needs, and how people experience connection in relationships. The discussion explores the limitations of rigid love language categories and how emotional needs shift based on context, life experience, and personal growth. Through personal stories and expert insight, the panel examines how curiosity, communication, and self awareness allow partners to better understand and support each other. This episode reframes connection not as a fixed formula, but as an evolving process of discovery. 

Transcript

PolySoCal E037 - Dr Joli Hamilton - Love Language
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​[00:00:00] 

Host Alonzo BanX: Welcome back to the Poly SoCal podcast. We have the amazing Dr. Jolie Hamilton back in the house tonight, along with Noah Cupcake. And Heather and I wanna talk about love languages tonight. Hi everybody.

Heather: Hi.

Noah: Hey.

Host Alonzo BanX: Okay, so, um, doctor, these are new people that I don't think anywhere on the last time we had you on. So we're gonna go around real quick and I'll let them introduce themselves and then, then we'll get to your bio and who you are. But this is your third time on our show, Noah. Good evening.

Noah: Hey, good evening. I am Noah. I am in a relationship with Cupcake who was on the podcast tonight and my nesting partner, cookie, who you have also spoken to a couple podcasts ago.

Host Alonzo BanX: How come [00:01:00] Cookie cupcake? Other pastry, sorry,

Cupcake: other

Host Alonzo BanX: the other pastry.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Do you have a

Cupcake: I'm,

Dr. Joli Hamilton: or are you still

Cupcake: we're working on it,

Dr. Joli Hamilton: I'm like, okay. Okay.

Cupcake: we've been discussing what the next pastry name will be. Um, I'm Cupcake. Um, as Noah mentioned, I'm partnered with both Noah and Cookie, and I also am married, um, with a husband, and my husband has one partner of his own, which I'm kind of, I'm, I would say we're more than a Metamore.

Um, but yeah.

Host Alonzo BanX: And sorry about the name. Of course, we know who you are, Heather.

Heather: Hi, I am Heather. I am married to the Beeb. I am engaged to Patty, and I'm dating John.

Host Alonzo BanX: Who I believe both of them were on the last time. Uh, we had you on Doc Julie.

Heather: you're meeting me

Host Alonzo BanX: Now you, you, you

okay? So, so [00:02:00] Doc, I'm gonna let you do your own who you are this time because Yeah, that's a mouthful, please.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: It's, it's a mouthful. Hi, I am Dr. Jolie Hamilton and I, let's see. I've been polyamorous for the last 17 years. I have my doctorate in Jungian and archetypal psychology, which I weave directly into all of my work with relationships. I am the founder of the year of opening, which is a year long adventure for people who are figuring out.

Either how to open up or how to finally do it better. Um, I also happen to have raised seven children. Um, I'm an ASEC certified sexuality educator. and a whole bunch of other stuff. You know, all the other things. But that's the important stuff, probably.

Host Alonzo BanX: And if they wanna know all the other, go back and listen to your other podcasts, your 'cause this is your third timer around

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Yeah, I'm easy to find.

Host Alonzo BanX: and, and you have your own shows too.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: I do. I playing the fire is where you can find my, that's my home base.

Host Alonzo BanX: So I had a question tonight that [00:03:00] came up this week, and uh, when I brought it up to you about the possible topic tonight, you had a, a rather strong reaction, which I thought was, which I thought was really cool. I'm like, oh, yeah, bring it. Okay. Love languages. Now I know there's the belief, there's the five love languages.

I am not a firm believer in the five because. My two have nothing to do with that list, but you had an opinion about the love languages and I, I'd love you to explain better.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Sure. Well, I mean, I said when you said you wanted to talk love languages, I said, I might not be the best person to talk about this unless you want an earful about the fact that they're completely not a validated instrument. They come from freaking like the worst place they could. They come from the lived experience of a Christian minister who was basically looking to reaffirm his assertion of how the world works, which of course is steeped deeply in patriarchy and white supremacy.

So maybe. [00:04:00] Not the best place for us to ground modern day egalitarian attempts at loving many people. However, I doubt that you wanted to talk about this from a traditional sense. Anyways, so I'm game. I'm game. Let's go.

Host Alonzo BanX: No, I, you know.

Heather: Let's do this.

Host Alonzo BanX: I, I think,

I think for me, the important takeaway is by the end of the night that people understand that whatever, whatever lexicon, whatever genesis you use, there are love languages that we use. There are ways that we show love and way that we seek love, and there's a lot of variance in that in the world. Would you agree with that?

Dr. Joli Hamilton: I would definitely agree with that. And I think that a lot of us don't understand how we really receive love or get stuck because we are so fixated, so rigid in our ideas. And actually [00:05:00] that's the problem with the idea, these original five love languages, these, this rigidity of like, oh, there's just this like.

Narrow set of categories and I could box myself up, but it's, we really have to expand our thinking. It's entirely personal. There are 8 billion of us, there's, there's 8 billion ways to conceptualize this and prioritize it, but I think we could also talk about attachment needs and how those can help us determine how we prefer to give and receive love.

Host Alonzo BanX: I would love to hear that cupcake. You had something you wanted to say.

Cupcake: Well, I was just gonna touch on that. Um, something I was kind of thinking about and I was discussing with, um, one of my metamours is that it, I almost consider that you can never really, again, you can never really be in one box and. is a mix of different languages or different, you know, loves. And we were kind of comparing it a little bit to the way that the Kinsey scale is used like homo uh, you know, sexuality and things like that.

And that, like, I kind of think [00:06:00] about it in a more of like a percentage. So like maybe I'm 50% this one and 25% this one and 10%. Another one is kind of how I, I like to think of it and the way that those numbers. Also are, can also blend to making a different, like you were saying, a different language itself.

Just having like two blend together type of thing.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: I agree with that. And I would add that, um, that like, that it could be a percentage way, that's a way we conceptualize it, but also, uh. Having a richer set of language, like some people really struggle with this because the language around it is so narrow, right? We need to really increase our ability to convey what we mean to convey when we say, oh, I, I, I love this way, or I want to be loved this way, but also it's always contextual, right?

I have multiple partners and I give and receive differently with each of them based.

Cupcake: Hmm.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Sometimes [00:07:00] on something that feels sort of innately due to me, just as frequently it's about what's happening. You know, when I was going through a major loss, I was receiving love through communal caregiving. Honestly, I didn't give a damn whether somebody was ready to go down on me, whether somebody was giving me sexual touch with whether somebody like, but I generally consider. to be a really high one, but ugh. Make me dinner when I'm going through a loss. That feels like it. So I think we have to, we really need to bring context into this.

Cupcake: Yeah, definitely. I agree with like I need different touches or different loves at different times of whatever I'm going through. At that time, I completely under, I'm like a hundred percent agree.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Yeah.

Noah: with what she's saying.

Host Alonzo BanX: Heather, you had something you wanted to add.

Heather: I was just gonna say I receive love differently depending on where I'm at in my cycle

Cupcake: Yep, a hundred

Heather: a hundred percent.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Oh yeah, yeah. Luteal Love is [00:08:00] not the same as follicular. Love it.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Cupcake: Pain tolerance, everything, like even

Noah: am glad you brought that up. I'm, I'm glad you brought that up, Heather, because that was where my mind went is that there seems to definitely be like a, a phase like, uh, for women as far as like where they're at in their cycle, I feel like bringing that up as a man has a lot of traps, so I'm glad you said that first.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: That was really good.

Noah: So, so I'm actually curious, you know, for you, Heather, specifically, since you brought it up, like can you kind of go through, you know, what, what it is that you feel in those scenarios?

Heather: Uh, so yeah, so, um, I start my active cycle in the beginning of the month, so I'm like actively going through. Aunt Flo is in town at that time I need more of a, um, make me dinner, [00:09:00] take care of me vibe, um, do things for me. Um, that's how I receive a lot of love. And then. Uh, when I'm in my, like ovulation ready to make a baby stage, I need more of the physical touch. Um, but I'm very vocal in, in my needs, so I will let you know what I need when I need it. And not a lot of women are like that. So I think a lot of women go through phases and they're not very vocal about what they need, so,

Cupcake: They may not even really know it or

Heather: right.

Cupcake: themselves,

Heather: Correct. And she said that in the beginning she does. You, a lot of women don't know what they need when they need it.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: And if you, if you have voiced a need and it has repeatedly been dismissed, diminished, uh, if it has not been met, how, how long, how many months, years go by and you just stop asking,

Cupcake: Mm-hmm.

Heather: you just start.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: you

Heather: You just start doing it for yourself, or you don't ask anymore.

Cupcake: Yeah.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: so I wonder about [00:10:00] that. Like, do I not know what I need or do I not believe that I can get it? Because that's gonna add into, and especially I see this when people are, when they have a new relationship and they're starting to feel like not just NRE, but also the new possibilities in a new connection,

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: we can maybe receive love in a certain way or

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: something in a way that we haven't been able to previously.

Somebody can hear that differently. It lands and it doesn't land in a wound place. Like there's so much to be said, for knowing us. Knowing ourselves and also allowing ourselves to, to see that we aren't just one thing, not to get too rigid about, oh, I, I want to be loved this way, or I receive love that way, but really be super flexible about it because it changes so much. So very much like, like you said, over a month. Yeah. But like, I think about my, you know, my nesting partner is a man driven largely, you know, not, not by the same hormonal shifts, [00:11:00] but. God moody, no problems with the moodiness. And does that change how he wants to receive love? Yeah, and I think one of the things we do best as nesting partners versus when we were not nesting partners is let each other be different. Like it doesn't have to be the same, which it has been a little hard. 'cause one of my high needs is predictability. that can, like, these things can feel oppositional. I'm longing for predictability, but you're changing all the time. What do we do with those conflicting needs?

Heather: Hm.

Host Alonzo BanX: Do you find that you can have different needs from different people in your life? I know I do. There are some partners that are, play partners to me is a very different need than, as you say, a nesting partner. I, I, I don't want that same love from different people.

Heather: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: I mean, I, I think that would be totally like. that to me feels like the default, that it's going to be different between different [00:12:00] people. Except I think this is where we should mention then that the desire, especially when people have first opened, to have everything feel equal or to really get run over by justice jealousy, like, it to all feel the same.

Like we have to let go of quite a bit of mono expectations to let it be okay that it's all different, different things land with different partners. Take some effort.

Host Alonzo BanX: Go ahead.

Cupcake: Well, it's something that I really wanted to bring up and it's something that I've kind of been going through in my head this week specifically. 'cause I was actually talking to Cookie about it 'cause she had brought something up. So am. I would say I'm a chronically ill person. I have been diagnosed with fibromyalgia, um, PCOS, and I'm pretty sure I have arthritis. Um, so my constant level of pain is much higher than everyone else's. I try to explain to [00:13:00] people that, you know, for the longest time I assumed, oh, physical touch must be my love language, because it just feels a healing sense to me. And when someone that I trust and care deeply about or love or whatever, way they can touch me, can take away all of my pain. Momentarily it shuts off the reactors or whatever it may be. And something that, like Cookie and I were talking about this week is it almost starts talking more about, you know, neurological and that for the longest time and for my, most of my adult life as I was, um, unfortunately sexually, sexually assaulted when I was 20, I've never, I don't really feel safe a lot. Safe, emotionally, safe physically. And started kind of talking about whether or not that healing touch is my [00:14:00] body going into feeling safe, and I'm finally being able to have those, like moments where I don't have to be. Tense all the time, or my body can shut off the reactors of having to constantly be in a mode of feeling like I need to be protective of myself. I kind of thought that was just part of my love language, and I think it has a lot more than that.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: I am hearing a strong need for co-regulation. Right? So, which is interesting because some people who've experienced profound trauma and some people who experience chronic pain, and here you are at the intersection of these, um, myself too. I share this, um, this history. Uh, I'm sure our stories are very unique, but I, I, I feel how some people, there's this. away. I, I like, I need to be in my own space. I need to have less of that. I need to have less touch or I need to have less. But, but if your [00:15:00] body learned how to feel safe through co-regulation at some point, that's a nothing short of a miracle. No wonder you would want that. Of course you do. It makes perfect sense.

But of course, not everybody. Would have formed a sort of healing sense around touch. Somebody else might have formed it through another avenue altogether.

Cupcake: and it has to be rare people that can get me to that point. If it's somebody I don't know, it doesn't, somebody I don't fully trust, I don't feel that same. Feeling. It's almost more tensing than like to the point where, you know, sometimes maybe I go to a masseuse. I don't know that person. I don't feel like I relax as much as I do when, you know, cookie and Noah are just running their fingertips along my arms when I'm just laying there.

You know, like it's insane. The difference, you know?

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Yeah. Yeah, that makes total sense, right? Your body's learned to find safety with certain people, and also people who understand how to read subtle clues with you, right? Like everybody can read us. [00:16:00] And I am a huge fan of explicit communication, we shouldn't overlook the fact that the, the ways that we communicate in subtlety, like all of the implicit stuff, but all the stuff that runs under the surface, the nonverbal cues, all the, the, the ways that a partner who is hypervigilant might be super hyper attuned to us, that can feel like love. Like, and not everybody's really capable of it. Some people are, some people aren't. Like I have, I have a partner who's autistic. They read me very, very differently from my partner who's not, what do we, what do I do with that reality? They're not doing it well or not well. They're just doing it differently.

Cupcake: It's not wrong, it's just different.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: being like, only, I couldn't only receive love in one way. I might miss the fact that no, they're both, they, it can land from both of them. I love that you've allowed yourself, uh, to, to feel how just because you receive, you know, touch from some people and it [00:17:00] takes that pain away, that you also don't say, oh, it should always

Cupcake: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: it's, it's, it's so contextual, it's so situational. Um, it gets to be unique to you.

Cupcake: Mm-hmm.

Host Alonzo BanX: So let me ask the impossible question. How do you figure out your partners, your lovers, G. Love languages? Just

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Hmm.

Host Alonzo BanX: a lot of times people don't even know their own.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Well, I think I would start with a little bit of concern around using the phrase love languages. Um, because it, it makes it seem like this'll be something that once I learn it, I'll know how to do it. But really we're talking about a complex system. We're talking about a human, an individual that is going to be, like we said, changing throughout over time.

And so the idea that you should learn them and know them. If it feels like we're, we're grasping at, I need to figure this out because then I'll, I'll have this [00:18:00] puzzle solved. But I would encourage more of an attitude of how can I be curious about what would feel supportive to you now? What feels good in your body now?

How can I really keep coming back to like, what helps you feel desired? What helps you feel liberated? What helps you feel free? All of this starts with asking questions and then shutting up and actually listening, not just not just hearing what I expect to hear and allowing my partner to tell me to update me the time. So much of the time we're listening to like the tape that's playing in our own head, rather than the answer our partner's actually giving us. We're not tuning into them as they are now. We're fixated on the idea that yes, we, we know them and once we know them we should just know them. Um, think we need to let ourselves be in curiosity and come back to really basic questions all the [00:19:00] time. Even talking about something like touch. What kind of touch would feel supportive to you right now? Do you want firm touch? Do you want light touch? Would you like to be supported in this way? all of these questions might be really irritating to someone. So if they don't want questions, okay, how else can we communicate about this?

What are the other ways? When I, when I, I have migraines when I'm in a migraine, you know, like I, I can't use my words, but I can point and I can, I can physically help my partner understand how I want to be touched. they can then respond to that. I don't think we should get fixated on, on like memorizing our partners, but instead being curious.

Host Alonzo BanX: Uh, everything that, uh, always comes down to communication is the key. Noah, you had something you wanted to bring up.

Noah: Yeah, and I think it's kind of along the lines of what you're saying. I've always had a problem with the languages, kind of like how you spoke. The same reasoning in a lot of ways. Um, as someone who spent some time in, in the Christian world, [00:20:00] um, in his younger days. Um, and, and I think a part of it is for me is 'cause none of them have really resonated with me. Right. Um, there's some where I can kind of go, yeah. You know, I like physical touch. Yeah. I like words of affirmation. Like, those are important to me. But I don't think that if someone just hit those notes, that would, that would be satisfied. Right.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Right.

Noah: And, and what I've found is that for me personally, um, and this comes down to almost every relationship that I have, whether it's romantic or not, but it's something that I've found is only, at least in my experience possible in polyamory, is, um. The, the feeling that they're truly with me and for me. And what I mean by that is, um, there is a level of trust and openness and radical honesty that makes it so that we can express of our emotions, all of our feelings, all of our deepest, darkest secrets or what have you. [00:21:00] And even if the person that I'm talking to. Doesn't

Heather: make,

Noah: me or, um, maybe even just feels I'm violently wrong a topic, right? That, um, they're still for me, they're still with me. They still believe in me. They still. You

Heather: you know, um.

Noah: there's no abandonment, I guess, right? There's this, uh, sense of, of, uh, steadfast reliance that I can have on the people around me, and that is something that I've got with my partners now and something that I feel like is not something I can ever have another romantic relationship, especially without.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: I, I really love that explanation. What I hear is, um. The radical acceptance in there. It feels like what you're talking about is like liberatory love. Like there's a, there's a quote, it's in Bell Hook's book, um, all about Love. And I believe that from there [00:22:00] it was actually a version of, it was in Scott Peck's book, um, road Less Traveled.

Where to Love is to be for oneself and for another, the spiritual development of another, right? Like, and of the, the self. And to do that. We couldn't possibly boil that down to, I like touch, I like words of affirmation. It's too trite. It's too simplistic. 'cause to be for me is to be for my humanity at core.

Like, like you said, like I can love someone I vehemently disagree with, can. And if and if I can't, honestly, I got questions about myself. Like that to me is, that's a, that's something to practice on. What do, what do I do with that? That doesn't mean I won't fight 'em, it doesn't mean I won't go to the mats if I need to. Um, if we're talking about something that's interfering, say with someone's physical safety or someone's right to exist, like, would I go toe to toe and I can still love their humanity? And that's me showing up in love. [00:23:00] Like, it, it might not always feel comfortable though. And that's an interesting thing.

'cause what I hear is to feel a person. In radical acceptance of your existence, That's so different than, do I feel good? Am I happy

Noah: Hmm.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: now? Like there's something deeper to this because we could be really loved and be deeply uncomfortable at the same time.

Noah: Oh, I've been there.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Yeah, me too.

Cupcake: I'm always uncomfortable

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Is that like the Hulk, he's always angry. Cupcakes always,

Cupcake: because of my, because of my chronic pain and my physical. I'm never comfortable until those moments where I feel like I am, and I, I kind of wanted to add into it is. we were talking about per person as well, like with Noah, obviously we, I, I don't know how much you know, but we have a little bit of a DS Dia.

Oh, not a little bit a, a [00:24:00] large part of our relationship has a DS dynamic, and a lot of what I get out of that is protection the feeling of being protected because I haven't felt protected for. Most of my life, you know, like not, you know, excluding my husband. He obviously makes me feel that way too.

But it's a different type, you know, it's a different type of protection. It's a different type of love. It's a different, there's, I don't believe there's any one love like you, you love each person differently for specific different reason. Reasons, because we're all different. So having, like you were saying. Different types of love, languages with different people is completely makes, you know, sense. Like, I would crave something from my husband different than I would crave something from Cookie or from Noah. It's, it, it's, it's all those personalities all meld differently, so it's always gonna be a different scale.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: I think this is a good time to talk about the, uh, the beauty of, um. [00:25:00] Like coming up with a, a more subtle list. That five is not very subtle either. Like now I'm thinking of um, Han Anne Holder ship's work on the modern love languages. And you know, Anne talk so beautifully about. Uh, well, uh, first off, where Chapman is just fucking awe crazy, also on how we

Host Alonzo BanX: Hmm.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: still use this principle, this underlying principle a way to get to know ourselves.

'cause you know, you asked, you asked like, how can we know our partners? I think a better question is, how can I know myself and articulate myself to my partner? can I help my partner know me and, and also help them feel safe to share themselves? 'cause what I'm hearing from Cupcake is that she feels safe now to express, like, what do I need and how would this need to be?

And it gets to be different from everybody in this dynamic. But also I need to feel safe enough to be known. So if I try to boil it down and say something [00:26:00] like, well, you know, I receive love through acts of service. I mean, I can do acts of service for you, but I actually need a lot more detail. Tell me more about what does that look like?

What does it sound like? One of the exercises I do with clients I'll frequently is I'll ask them to, to identify amongst a list of attachment needs, like which ones are really high priority for you right now? Knowing that we all have all of the attachment needs and we're, we get to have all of them met, but which ones are high priority for you? And then from there, let's say somebody says, um, well, if they say trust, okay, cool. Tell me about what's one way that you receive that? do you, how do you like, receive trust in your body? And usually people's response when they're first contemplating that is, I don't know. I just, just, I just know it when I have it. But it's so valuable to do the exercise of noticing what helps me feel like I can trust my partner. [00:27:00] For instance, some people feel really high trust when their partner discloses a lot. They get really high transparency and lots of disclosure. people do not, that does not help them feel like they can trust their partner.

They want instead, they want their, the information that they receive to be well timed, well titrated for their nervous system. Um, they want to make sure that they don't get a flood of information in a time that's bad for them. So those are two wildly different ways that a person might experience trust in a relationship. So for me, having people do these exercises where they're, they're really getting down into the weeds of it. What are these deep underlying attachment level needs, these non-negotiables. As, as far as needs go, things like trust and safety and um, desire, express, desire, intimacy, they're non-negotiable. But the ways that we meet them, those are negotiable.

That's where our partner can meet us in our preferences and our [00:28:00] wants. And if we can start to understand, what do I, what do I need? And then how do I want to meet that need in this particular context with this particular partner? What's possible, what can I say, what can I do to help them meet me in that, it's gonna get me a much more rich experience with them and much more nuanced and tuned into where I am right now. So it's more complicated for sure, it also opens up so much more possibility.

Host Alonzo BanX: Doc, you've mentioned attachment needs a couple of times.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Yeah.

Host Alonzo BanX: Can you explain that a little better for me?

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Yeah, so I mean, if we think just basic attachment theory, which when people think about attachment theory often they immediately think of attachment styles. I tend to talk about attachment strategies instead because I don't like people to get boxed in or labeled by attachment styles. That's a very fixed mindset perspective.

So attachment theory [00:29:00] is very useful, but I don't like anybody to get fixed on the idea of, oh, I'm an avoidant. Now you're, you're many things, you contain multitudes, but, um, but you probably use a whole bunch of avoidant strategies. Underneath all of our attachment styles or patterns or strategies, lies our basic human needs. human needs for things like safety, playfulness, trust, honesty, um, express desire, intimacy. There's, there are lists and lists of them. And when we look at a list like that, for most of us. We'll notice that if, if we can prior, if we can understand like what, what for what helps me feel safe in my body.

Like I mentioned, predictability is a really high need for me. Predictability does not actually, in my world, it doesn't mean consistency. I have an attachment need for predictability, which means I need to be able to predict what's going to happen next. It doesn't have to [00:30:00] be consistent. I just feel the need to be able to predict it, which means you could be all over the map, but if I can understand you, if I, if I can follow you, if I, if I can track you and it makes sense to me. I feel safe, right? Attachment needs when they're met at Core, they, they help us relax. They help our systems relax and be present in the present moment. When our attachment needs aren't met, we're often living either dragged back into the past or predicting a terrible future. a list of attachment needs, and I don't wanna be exhaustive here, like nobody can list you like these are the attachment needs that would be overly prescriptive, but there are lists of needs that can help people understand like. Oh, for me, I ask people to prioritize them because if I understand that for me, trust, honesty, loyalty. Okay. Oh, if those are all at the top. Okay. How does this help me tell my [00:31:00] partner I can feel loved? Those needs can help me figure out how to express to my partner. I need to know when you're going to come home at an attachment level.

You may say, you know what, I don't. I don't know when I'm gonna come home. So how do we meet that need in another way? 'cause I don't know when this event's gonna end. So how can we meet that need for predictability and also meet my need for autonomy in this moment? What do we do? How can we puzzle through this together? So I find attachment needs are a little bit of a, a different way than like the love languages to, to get down, like to the roots of the issue, right? Because can't deny that a person can have an autonomy need. You can't deny that someone can have a predictability need, but the love languages can feel a little like, um. I don't know. Do you need that? Like, I feel people trying to prove themselves, do you really need that? Attachment needs or attachment needs? They're, they're [00:32:00] hardwired into us.

Host Alonzo BanX: Yeah, no, go ahead.

Noah: Yeah, I, I think you're kind of touching on it a little bit. I've actually witnessed experienced myself, um, almost the weaponization. Of these love languages, right? Like it's this whole like, call it compliance thing. Like it's a way of policing behavior almost like you haven't met my physical touch needs, I need 20 minutes every day or whatever, you know, the, request is, right? Um, and it, do you have like a suggestion for what we should actually be trying to go for, like an exploration of our desires? Like how, how do we find those and what, what makes more sense?

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Yeah, excuse me. When I'm working with people, I, I find it's really just like, we don't want to make our relationship agreements be rules-based because rules-based agreements tend to break down pretty fast. Like if I make [00:33:00] a set of rules that say, you need to do this for 20 minutes and you need to be home in exactly this time, and you like, it's so easy for these things to be either worked around with loopholes or broken through like.

Uh, just a, a pathological desire to not have to meet that or just Absolutely. Just It's too strict. It's too restrictive. In the same way, having our, having our partner make a list of like exactly how, exactly how those attachment needs are gonna be met. For me, the only context that makes sense in is in a very high protocol DS relationship, where that could actually have a place where we could. Together decide. It feels good to me actually. Sort of consign my autonomy, like give it over and say, no, I am going to show up in, in this way even though I might be overriding some of the things I want in the moment because want to have this high protocol exchange of power with you. But [00:34:00] outside of that, the rules wind up.

I I often just becoming a, a placeholder for, I want you to prove to me that I'm worthy. So let's use the 20 minute example. If, what I really want is to feel a sense of that I can trust you. If I wanna feel that I'm valued and special. I wanna feel some playfulness, I wanna feel intimacy with you. If I say you're gonna meet that need by 20 minutes of physical touch, is, is it?

Do I like? Do I as the person giving that that request, am I sure that's even gonna work? it's, it's an awfully simplistic view and also. It, it doesn't really get to the heart of the, the many, many, many ways that I might actually want to meet those needs. Right? There can be so much more creativity in this. So I would way rather watch somebody say, so I have this underlying need the [00:35:00] under the underlying set of needs here. Like, let's look at them together and. Here are like 10 ideas I have for what it might sound like and look like for you to show up. For me to meet these needs, like a whole bunch of ideas, like a brainstormed list, I want the longest list possible and, and we can actually make that together. And from there, not only do we have a menu, but also we can see, look how much flexibility there actually is. if, this was never about whether I had 20 minutes of physical touch and was about, will you show up and creatively work with me to, to help me feel loved and I can help you feel loved? Does that, does that make sense?

Noah: I think it makes a lot of sense. And I I've actually got a quick follow up question on that and, and on your response, I'm wondering, 'cause here's my opinion, the five love languages were created in a way, um, it to [00:36:00] deal with mono normative relationships that are. Um, in crisis, right? These are people who are clearly not communicating, not dealing with each other, and this is like the bare minimum of how can we start this process.

I feel like the five love languages are like step one to getting to talk to each other again. How do you feel about that?

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Well, I think it, yeah, I think that was the idea, but it also wildly overlooks the, the gender biases here. I, because I don't, at least 80% of the cisgender men I have met say, oh, my, my love language is physical touch. I'm like, maybe. But I don't know that you've been to enough therapy to actually know that. I like, hang on. I need to, you need to give yourself more time. I know myself, I was in a 17 year relationship where I was 100% certain that words of affirmation were my love languages. I had gone and I had done all the [00:37:00] general, you know, counseling and they had, they had identified it was, it was that, that I needed. First off, off of a list of just five things maybe it looked like, you know, we have that split, but also, um, yeah. Uh. It was, it was the one thing I I, the one thing I wanted in that context. 'cause it's also the one thing I wasn't getting right. I wasn't getting words. Um, my partner at the time came back with of service as his primary love language.

I'm like, cool. So he wants me to take care of the four kids and do all the things. And I want him to talk now. I, and he won't talk. And I'm already taking care of all the everything. Where the hell does that leave us? It was a trap. I what I feel like there, there's this huge trap in the simplicity of it, and at the very, very beginning, if it's really about getting people in crisis to talk to each other, [00:38:00] would actually go a step back further.

They need to learn how to know themselves a little bit first. Almost every couple that I work with in crisis, the real work is in, can they even. Deal with themselves they're trying to get their partner to be someone, but they don't even know themselves yet. So I wish we could go back like 10 years earlier in any couplehood where they're in like locked in that battle.

Because I think you're right to point that out. Like that's the crisis, but what exactly are we trying to communicate to? If I don't know myself, how do I even convey that to you?

Noah: Yeah, I think we had a recent podcast episode with you. We talked about individuation and that's probably

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Yeah.

Noah: Jump for that. Yep.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: We gotta start. We gotta start somewhere.

Host Alonzo BanX: We are gonna have to be wrapping up here pretty soon, but, um, cupcake. I see you desperately wanna say something. Heather, you had your hand up. Gonna ask you to make it kind of quick though, because we're gonna have to let the good doctor go. Heather, please.

Cupcake: go ahead, Heather.

Heather: No, go ahead, cupcake.

Cupcake: [00:39:00] Uh, um, I just wanted to kind of touch on, you know, the wanting to know or trying to learn where that person is and what they're needing at that time. And something that, like my husband and I have started putting into practice through therapy is when there's. Either a conflict or something going on.

We ask the three H's, do you need help?

Host Alonzo BanX: Hmm.

Cupcake: Do you need to be heard or do you need a hug? And that gets us at least kind of where that person is needing and what, you know, what love language, or whatever you wanna call it, is at that time because it could be different every time.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Yeah. I love the three Hs. It, it, it really does help. It, it really does help to use any form though, of self-identification when, when we come together, like back to Noah's point, like if, if when we come together have any idea what it is, I'm actually trying to get, stand a so much of a better chance of actually getting there rather than if, I'm just hoping that you can figure it out.

'cause I can't figure it [00:40:00] out.

Host Alonzo BanX: I definitely wanna give you the opportunity to say what you had on your mind.

Heather: Oh, no, go ahead JI know we're on a timetable, so we're good.

Host Alonzo BanX: It's quite all right. Don't leave it hanging.

Heather: I was just gonna say, um, my different partners if I'm in a need for something, beautiful thing about polyamory is that if I'm in a need for emotional connection or emotional connection with somebody, uh, that would be, I'm gonna. Geared towards Patty in that, because I know she can emotionally connect to me better. If I'm in a need for, uh, physical touch, I would go to my husband, um, because he is usually there with me most of the time. If I'm needing to be understood in that moment and just heard, I'm gonna reach out to John. So it's the beautiful thing about polyamory. If I have a need and I know the person that can fill that need, I can just, boop, I'm gonna reach out to that person. [00:41:00] So there was a point where Jolie was talking about different partners filling different needs. So I was like, I was gonna pop in there, but.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: No, absolutely. I think it's, it's true that in the, in the spirit of expediency. Being able to reach out to people get that need met. But I would also say there's a kindness in there of, if I have a partner who really loves to show up for me by listening, like that is how they like to show up. And I, and I'm like, and I like it when they listen to me. There's something really just sweet and generous in, in just saying like, yeah, I'm gonna reach that partner who I know just wants to hear me yap for a while. And that will feel good to both of us. at the same time, there is strength in saying, wow, I, I don't really meet this particular need for my partner well, and I want to learn how. Like, I think both ends of that spectrum could be, could be the right move for [00:42:00] an individual at a time. You know, I have a partner who spent many, many years working diligently to increase our intellectual intimacy because it's what I was seeking and I kept seeking it in other partners and that was working, but he just kept hammering away at it and it really works so beautifully now. And that was. It came through like the struggle. It wasn't always ease useful, but the willingness to be like, yeah, and I want to meet this because, 'cause I want to. So for his own development too, not because he had to, not because I didn't have the need met, but because, oh I wanna stretch in that way so we can be inspired.

But also I do like the a good shortcut when I can take one. Can I just get this need met right now? Can I be efficient?

Host Alonzo BanX: Doc, you know, every time we have you on, I feel like I'm cutting off the conversations when they're halfway through. You get any final words on this topic for our, our listeners tonight? For those who are [00:43:00] listening to this thinking, I need to start down this path, where do they start?

Dr. Joli Hamilton: I mean, I think if, if you've been looking at love languages and have not looked at Anne Holder ship's work plea immediately. Do not pass, go. Do not collect $200. Just go straight there. Anne is on, um, so many different platforms. She has a book out called Modern Love Languages. If you wanna, a really good solid take on this idea, her work is just so solid, please.

She's also just a wonderful, spectacular, and well educated sex educator and

Host Alonzo BanX: Hmm.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Really trust her work. Please lean that direction and if what I'm saying speaks to you, I encourage you to check out playing with fire. 'cause we're talking about these topics all the time. You can find playing with fire on all the major players.

Host Alonzo BanX: And that's what I was gonna ask. Tell us, tell everyone how they can find you, what all your good links are. Give us all the good stuff.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Well, the only other thing I would say is if, if the way I was talking about needs versus wants, strikes, you. the kind of work [00:44:00] I do. A lot of people, when they're opening up their relationship, they overfocus on how do we get to the juicy part? How do we get to the sexy part? Or they're like, or how do we overcome jealousy?

Which, I mean, jealousy is my thing, but. Honestly, the work starts with exactly what we're talking about tonight. The work starts with, do I know myself? Can I articulate that to my partners? Can my partners be willingly show up to my humanity over and over again? And that's actually at the core of the year of opening.

People always imagine it's about negotiating sex contracts. I'm like, oh, it's, it is so much more fundamental work than that. So you can find me there@yearofopening.com.

Host Alonzo BanX: It is always an absolute honor to have you here. I hope you will consider coming back to us a fourth time.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: of course. Always a

Host Alonzo BanX: Thank. Thank you so much, Noah Cookie. Got cupcake, Noah Cupcake pastries. I gotta get 'em right. Heather and the [00:45:00] amazing Dr. Jolie. Thank you very much. This is in the Poly SoCal Podcast. I am still Alonzo Banks.

Goodnight everybody.

Heather: Goodnight.

Dr. Joli Hamilton: Night.

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