The moment you realize your life no longer fits the relationship you built.

In this deeply personal episode of PolySoCal, Noah and Cookie share the story of how they transitioned from long term monogamous marriages into a polyamorous BDSM relationship. The conversation explores repression, incompatibility, fear, guilt, cheating, divorce, and the difficult process of rebuilding a life around authenticity rather than obligation. Through honest reflection, the group discusses the emotional and practical realities of leaving relationships that no longer fit, the risks involved in radical change, and the importance of therapy, communication, and support systems when stepping into ethical non monogamy. This episode is not about a perfect transition. It is about what happens when people finally decide to stop ignoring who they are.

Alonzo Banx, Noah, Cookie

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome back to the Polyso Cal podcast. I am Alonzo Banks, and tonight we have Noah and Cookie in the house. And I'm gonna ask a question that um they both just agreed might be a little bit controversial.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Explore some love from screen.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

So real real quick, there's only the three of us in the house tonight. Um, with say hello so everyone remembers who you are, and more importantly, your connection to each other, which really kind of amplifies the question I'm gonna ask. Noah, say hi.

SPEAKER_04 1:08

Hey, I'm Noah. I'm partnered with Cookie on the podcast tonight. You also know that I'm partnered with uh Cupcake, uh, who is married to another man who has his own partner, and we have kind of a mix of partners slash kitchen table situation. So that's who who I am.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Good to have you tonight. Cookie, we don't get shown often. I did I think sending you that list showing you, you know, that we need you on here more kind of you know stirred a little fire there.

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Well, yeah, yeah. Uh I'm Cookie, uh partner with Noah and Cupcake. Uh Noah introduced us pretty well. And yeah, obviously I haven't been on here enough, so I'm happy to be back.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

Good to have you. Okay, so the fact that we have you two tonight, and you know, Cookie, I've known you for a a long time now. I'm long before the changes in your lifestyle, kind of really brought up the question. Which is when was that moment where you realized that you wanted to transition from monogamy to poly? What did that decision take? How did you face it? How did you talk to people around you? And I mean, the million questions that people are gonna have about I'm monogamous and I think I want to be poly. How do I make that step? So, cookie, I put you on the on the spot because like I said, I know you I've known you in your previous life.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Oh man, right. So, yeah, so uh Alonzo met me in my before life uh with my ex-husband. Um, and I was with my ex-husband for about 13 years. And then before that, I had, I guess, a couple somewhat serious, but not super serious uh relationships that were kind of monogamous in structure as well. Um, and you know, I think a big part of why I started that way is it's just very much set up as the default. Um, you know, my parents were monogamous, pretty much everyone in our family circle and all of our friends were also monogamous. It was just um the structure that was most familiar. So the first one I sought after. Uh, but I would say, you know, even before making that firm choice, um, you know, every time I would be in a relationship, it felt like at some point uh the whole setup felt limiting. And I think like early on in those relationships um that I had since they were new and I was just new to relationships in general, I kind of just felt like, oh, well, that's just one of those passing thoughts you have about um, you know, of what could be, and everybody has those. Um but I uh yeah, after being with my relationship uh with my ex-husband for so long, um, and actually kind of having a moment where I broke up with him and we and we came back together and tried again, um it kind of revalidated that feeling in me that, you know, whoever I would be with next, um, I would like to explore something a bit more experimental, a bit more open. Um, and I would like to, you know, experiment with having more intimate relationships um just in my life, uh, because I like to talk deeply with people. I like to get to know people. Um, and a big part of extending that can be, you know, in in love, um, in sexuality and friendship. And I feel like um, you know, it's it's one of those things when you're in in a monogamous relationship for a long time and it wasn't necessarily an agreement up front when when you got into that relationship, but it was just a condition. Um I found myself kind of just coming back to that thought a lot. And eventually it kind of uh, and this will I guess will be the controversial part, um, the the pressures of that kind of led me astray um in my in my existing monogamous relationship. And I uh, you know, I was not faithful and I was also feeling like I was not in a position to communicate those feelings to my partner and have them received safely. Um I felt like uh things were already kind of falling apart and I felt like I was already outgrowing um the relationship I was in. I've I started to kind of acknowledge all the other ways that I felt held back from the things that I wanted to go after in life because I was with a person who really just had different goals than me. And um yeah, I think a lot of those realizations and thoughts kind of led me to to take the actions of ending that and then beginning a uh ethically non-monogamous relationship with Noah, who happened to around the same time be kind of going through that same kind of process, it seems. I mean, I won't entirely speak for him. And you know, we had a lot of our own private conversations about that, but I also feel like um it it aligned us both on that journey to to take that together in in kind of a beautiful way. And I, as messy as it seemed, maybe from the outside to some people, I it it does feel more right. Um, I feel more aligned with what I'm interested in doing and more able to speak to my partner now about um experimental and new things that I want to try. And I don't feel those pressures um anymore about the the conditions of a of a culturally reinforced relationship anymore. And that part is very freeing for me. Um so yeah, it's it there is no one way about it. It it is messy um to do that kind of conversion, and and you have to know that you're doing it for you, and there's gonna be people around you who are unhappy about it, and there might be people you might never talk to again by by taking action on those things. Um but you you just have to decide that you're gonna value your experience more than than that, more than their opinions. And uh it takes guts, it takes a lot of guts to do that. It and and yeah, for for anyone considering that journey, like I understand. Uh and I wish I could really offer like some really sound advice, but every situation is kind of its own unique monster to tackle.

SPEAKER_03 7:50

But you jumped deep. I mean, you didn't just go from monogamous to poly. You went from monogamous to a and fairly vanilla to a BDSM relation that's poly. So like you took both plunges at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Did I yeah, right. And I think I think a big part of that was just you know how repressed I really was for so long, like how many interests I had that were left unexplored, and then to finally find someone who kind of aligned with a lot of those interests, like I was more than prepared to jump in because I, you know, just had all that time, all that time to build it up.

SPEAKER_03 8:27

And were you looking for both? Did the did the poly come with the BDSM or BDSM with poly, or you were actively looking for both of those at once?

SPEAKER_00 8:37

You know, I would say more so I was interested in BDSM first, because I feel like poly was is honestly so new for me in comparison. Like I feel like I knew about BDSM a little bit more um before that, maybe for like 10 years or so before that, and was more familiar and interested in that. But again, I had a partner who was just very not interested in in exploring any of that. Like that was just a very uncomfortable thing to even ask him to explore. So um, and the thought of me exploring that with other people, I could tell, made him uncomfortable too. So that was just uh yeah, one of those things that I would think about, you know, in the fantasy realm a lot and it never quite died. And um as uh a bit of a thrill seeker, I feel like I I placed some importance on that having that experience somehow. Um and then, you know, by extension, when you get into that type of thing, I feel like there is just a very large network of poly people. Um, and also crossing over into that. I was interested in a lot of art festivals and being around a lot of artists and people who are just generally a bit more eclectic and open, like there's just this huge overlap of the poly community. And it just uh started to naturally filter into the spectrum of options available for what a relationship could look like. Um, and yeah, as someone who was kind of repressed in a relationship, I wasn't really happy with. I was really interested in kind of jumping into a few different directions. Um I didn't expect to find someone like Cupcake so soon after meeting Doah to explore something like Polly. But when we got together, I think we agreed that we were interested in in, you know, ethically finding ways to keep it kind of open so we could we could meet and and play with other people. Um and she just happened everything just happened to align just so quickly and so fast, um that that I was able to do that. Um and I feel like it was a lot of his luck.

SPEAKER_03 10:47

I don't know. So I want to go in two directions with that. Um, first, just to be clear, when you and Noah got together, there was not any other partners in the relationship at the time. You both got together with the understanding that you wanted to be poly. Correct? Correct. How far before you made the decision to leave your other relationship did you really start thinking I'm Polly? Or with you, did it start with I'm BDSM and that left. How basically how long did you live on the decision before you pulled the trigger?

SPEAKER_00 11:25

I feel like I really started to consider it for like a year to six months before it actually happened. And it was mostly the BDSM portion um with a little bit of poly mixed into that because it was just another thing on the on the bucket list that felt like it would never happen in my existing relationship. Um but yeah, that it that feels like about that amount of time. And it's not that like I wasn't having moments of considering it before that, but this was like the amount of time where I it really started to stick, like, no, I think this is something I really want to pursue. Like, like really started to take it seriously. I would say six months to a year.

SPEAKER_03 12:04

And if you don't mind me digging a little bit, what percentage of your choice to leave your previous relationship? 13 years is a good time to be invested, was the poly BDSM part. Was it the relationship was on the rocks and that was a contributing factor, or was this a major part of your decision?

SPEAKER_00 12:29

I'd say a little bit of a half and half. Like I feel like when, and I don't want to speak for all relationships with this, but when you break up with someone and then you get back together with them, I think there is often an expectation that the person is different now. Um, and oftentimes early on, it really does feel like that person is different now and you are different now. And it is fascinating to see how even if you've changed a lot, there are just a lot of other core things that do not, or they present themselves in new ways and annoy you just the same ways. Um, and and it kind of for me validated that this was kind of an incompatible relationship. Um, it validated to me that I was with someone who was not helping me be my best um in a lot of aspects of my life. And um and those feelings accounted for maybe like half of the reason I wanted to leave. And then the other half was the deprivation and repression feelings, which I just feel like, especially over 13 years, if you repeatedly kind of have those thoughts, it builds up. And as you get older, the pressure to, you know, do that with the time you have left, the the urgency to do something about that increases. And, you know, projecting my life forward, imagining, you know, okay, if I stay with this person, I know that all of these thoughts are only gonna get worse. Like I don't think that there's another way to alleviate my curiosity about them unless I try to engage with them. And if I'm not with a person who I can safely do that with, then it's clear that that is a big incompatibility um with my life interests. And uh and while it is maybe a little selfish, um, I do think it's still the right thing to do. And um, I'm still glad I did it. But it did it took a lot of bravery and motivation and time and uh kind of like deciding to quit cigarettes or something, just like doing it, cold turkey doing it, and just uh not trying to dance around and try to make everybody happy when you leave. Um it's just uh it's not gonna be clean, you know. It's just not you you can't have beautiful expectations of uh you know ending a thing perfectly.

SPEAKER_03 14:56

Um since you made the jump.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

A little over three years. Three years, about three a little over three years, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Do you remember back to what some of your biggest um fears and anguishes were that now realizing those weren't really justified, I was afraid of X and that didn't happen. Like with my previous relationship.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

But with the transition in general. Oh, sure, sure. Um you know, I think I was actually more afraid of staying in a situation I didn't want to be in than taking a chance. Um, I don't think taking this chance was something that made me fearful. Um yeah, I think it was scarier to me to have the thought of no, like I could be trapped here in a situation I don't want to be in forever and and and try to play it off like I chose this and am happy in it, you know, like that that sounds like an absolute living nightmare. And I'm pretty certain it would have been. Um so yeah, I think my my biggest fear just would have been staying in that discomfort, staying in a place where I just knew it wasn't right for me.

SPEAKER_03 16:13

Were there any pain points that you didn't see coming? Where after you made the transition, all of a sudden you went, ouch! I didn't expect that.

SPEAKER_00 16:24

Um I mean, I will say, like, I don't feel like I'm necessarily on bad terms with anybody after the fact, but I definitely feel like I kind of lost some friends um and connections, and that that always hurts a little bit. Um, and as much as my ex-husband is, I feel like is is com incompatible with me on that relationship level, like we had other compatibilities that I do miss. Um, and those, you know, it does hurt. It does hurt to not have that anymore. Um But uh I honestly can't think of a single thing I regret. Uh even how long it took, I really can't be that mad at myself for it. It like, yeah, it would have been nice to have addressed this sooner or realized it sooner. Um but better late than never definitely rings true for me for that. So uh yeah, I I really approached this whole thing as a very just uh forgiving of myself kind of thing. Um I'm a fallible human being just like anybody else. And choosing a relationship that's not right for me is a completely valid mistake that I think a lot of people do make. And um and that's okay, you know, like I don't need to prove to the world that I made the right choice by just by staying in it, you know, just to be like, ha, you know, I chose right. I told you so. I'm I'm perfect, I know everything, you know, because that's just a big act. I'll still have to feel the weight of of knowing that I didn't.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

So last question, then I'll get on get on Noah. We haven't been asking you much so far. How long was the transition from when you you know you decided this is going to happen to it happened? Is it something that you dragged out for weeks or months or days?

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Yeah, I feel like I I knew it would happen soon-ish for that six months to a year, and then like the time the plan to exit was probably two or three months, maybe a little bit less. But yeah, I'd say three months, like the the intention was set, like no, I'm going to leave soon for sure. Very soon. And then uh yeah, and then kind of comes just a lot of uh planning, pre-planning before that, pre-grieving, which is a little unfair for your existing partner, but still something that needs to be done, I think. Um and uh uh Yeah, as soon as like the new year started, that felt like a big refresh point. We're like, okay, like this is a good time to move forward, and then yeah, a couple months later it happened. Um and yeah, I'd say it happened, happened like within a week. Like it was a very aggressive uh you know, moment. Like I moved out within a week just suddenly and was done, and that and that was it. Didn't look back.

SPEAKER_03 19:37

Okay, and I'll come back to that, but Noah. Talk about your relationship prior, because you were in a also a long-term monogamous relationship, right?

SPEAKER_04 19:49

I was, yeah. And I have a lot to say, so I'm gonna try to do my best to organize my thoughts in a way that uh makes sense and doesn't take up hours of time. But uh to try to keep a long story short, I was married uh for over 17 years. Um and we had gotten married uh very young, um, at least by today's standards. We were in our very early 20s. Um my ex-wife wasn't even old enough to drink when we got married, um and we really didn't know shit about shit. We had no idea how the world worked, and I think her and I both, uh, but me especially, um, was playing the world by numbers, right? We were painting by numbers. It was I graduated high school, I got a full-time big boy job. I moved out to well, before that, I moved out to California. Um I originally grew up in Minnesota, and um I I I then said, okay, well, what's next? So I I met a girl shortly after I moved to California. Uh we paid it off. Um I then decided, okay, well, I've got a big boy job, I've moved states, I'm an adult now. I guess I'll ask her to marry me. Because that's the next step, right? That's what you do when you're an adult. And then I decided the next thing to do then is buy a house and have a kid. So I did those things. And so now I'm in my you know, mid to late twenties at this point. And I I realize that I'm I'm not happy. Um both in my marriage, which I could talk all day about, but I won't. But um it wasn't good really from the start. Um, but I stuck it out uh because of my at the time Christian values, um, which told me that you stay no matter what, you are a loyal husband, and this is what you do for God. And country and whatever else. Right. And I that was the manly thing to do was to basically just suffer in it. That's the choice you made, and it's forever. So that's what you do. Um and I honestly felt lost. I I I when I had those things, I had the kid and the house and the wife. Um not such a bad life when you look at it from the outside, but I felt very empty in so many ways. And ultimately, I just said, well, I guess my next goal is to die. So I'm not trying to say that in like a suicidal way, but that was just what I was waiting for. I was just marking time until that happened, I guess. Um, I was in a groundhog day life where I came home from work. And in my marriage, I really wasn't allowed to explore my desires or wants, uh, even hobbies. Um, so I'd watch reality shows I didn't care about um just to make her happy. And then I'd go to bed, usually angry. And that was kind of my life. It's just it was how I felt. And um I remember wanting so much more, but it always felt wrong or gross or that I'd be, I should be ashamed of it, even though it's what I desired. And it was, you know, I I would meet other people in my life uh who were interesting to me, people who, you know, I wanted uh a stronger relationship with, but I wasn't allowed to because I was in a monogamous relationship. And for most of my life, I'll be honest, I've I've always thought um people took sex way too seriously. In the sense that uh not that it shouldn't be taken seriously to a point, but um sex is not just an expression of love, it's an expression of enjoyment and fun. Um and I think to a point within some level of responsibility, uh we shouldn't pretend that it's some huge level, some crazy barrier of uh uh you know what I'm trying to say. That it's a like a major deal to have sex, I guess. Anyway, so I'm going through this relationship for about 17 years, um, and I meet Cookie. And when I meet Cookie, um this was another person who I had a connection with. This was another person I felt uh a strong connection with almost immediately. And it wasn't the first time I had felt this kind of connection. Like I said, I've felt this before uh many times. Um but I think this was just the moment that we both had needed when we met each other. It was the right timing when we are both felt maybe a little desperate in our relationships, um a little lost and feeling maybe unloved in our relationships. Um and we talked a lot, we talked a lot, and at first it was relatively innocent, um and then it became not, to be honest, and people can make whatever opinions they want on that, but um we really learned a lot about each other, and we had a lot of commonalities in how we were living our life, a lot of parallels, um, and our feelings around sex and non-monogamy and BDSM um were very much aligned. Um, she had, you know, shared some desires and fantasies with me. And I'll be honest, a lot of that was not new per se in the idea of, but it was new in the sense that that can happen. That's a real thing that people do. I had uh basically been living my life with the idea that that was only something that happened in movies or TV, or you know, and always ended in disaster, right? You would invite someone else into your bedroom, or you know, you would have a relationship outside your home, even if it was consensual, and it would um always end up in disaster. That's basically how it's portrayed in Hollywood or in in culture. And so I had I had really been of the belief that that was not a real thing that had really happened on a regular basis, that it was an extremely rare thing and certainly nothing that ever really worked out. Um but Cookie had kind of opened that world up to me because she was more aware of it than I was. And that allowed me to do a little bit of research and see some things and become part of you know, some internet communities, et cetera, that really opened my eyes to a lot of uh a lot of things. And um that was a huge eye-opening moment for me. When when I realized that the way that I was living my life, which again was a paint by numbers, it was what I was told to do. It was the this is what you do when you become an adult. You get a job, you have kids, you buy a house, get married. That's the plan. Um and even if it didn't feel right, that was what you were supposed to do. And then I learned that you don't have to do that. And that was such uh a relief in so many ways. I suddenly felt like I had options, and then on top of that, I had met someone who felt perfect to explore those options with.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

So you jumped from vanilla monogamy to BDSM polyamory.

SPEAKER_04 28:42

Yeah, I did. I did. And I had had all of those desires over the years, but I had really pushed them down or ignored them or pretended they didn't exist or only explored them in porn or what have you, right? Um, it wasn't something that I had taken seriously. And uh yeah, when uh Cookie had expressed those desires to suddenly have someone to explore that with was um a whole new world just opened up to me. Um and we didn't act on those for quite some time. It was a lot of talk, mostly getting to know each other and exploring our own desires. Um, I'd say for many, many, many months of just talking, just chatting online, basically is what it was. Um we got to know each other so well in that time. Um and then yeah, I I I we eventually got to a point where we couldn't take it anymore, and we we began cheating on our partners, to keep it simple. Um and that was basically when I had decided that I was done with my marriage. And I had told Cookie at the time, whether or not you're going to leave your husband, I'm going to be leaving my wife. And I had basically set a time of the new year for my own personal reasons, Christmas with a child, yada yada yada, right? Um it didn't quite work out that way. Um, but that was my plan. And I had told Cookie, I was like, listen, I'm I'm I'm leaving my wife. You don't have to make any choices that you don't want to make. Um, but this is a choice I'm gonna make regardless of your choice. Um and you're welcome to come with me. But this is where it's going. And I did make that choice before she had made hers. I moved out and I, you know, told her, I'll make you a key. Here's my new place. You're welcome to move in. Um and she made her choice then. And that was that's basically the the gist. That's the gist.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

Well it sounds like you weren't actively out looking for the change. The change found you.

SPEAKER_04 31:15

The change found me, absolutely. And I've I've I've in these last few years not been happier in my life ever. This is the happiest I've ever been. Um Cookie is the best among us. I say that for all humanity, she's the best among us. Um and and having her as my partner and um having her as my nesting partner um has been the best experience of my life, hands down. And I do not regret for a second uh the choices that I made. Um I would do it all again.

SPEAKER_03 32:02

You know, one of the things that you see over and over with marriages, and it was true with mine too, when we get married very young, we don't know ourselves yet. And as as we get older and we start discovering who we are, we can realize that we made commitments to things that weren't right for us, and it's it's always painful. But the step from one monogamous relationship to another is confusing enough. The step from a monogamous relationship into a poly relationship, that's where things get complicated. No, when you were thinking about stepping out, and then ask you the same question I asked Cookie, and I I do this for the the audience out there. What fears did you have that you then found later were unfounded? Things that you were afraid you would face that you didn't, and inversely, what things should you have been afraid of that you didn't know you should have been because they came back and bit you in the butt.

SPEAKER_04 33:07

Yeah, I think uh one is and Cookie might laugh at me when I say this, but the financial cost. I remember telling her, you know, we were married for a long time in the state of California. You married over 10 years, you owe alimony for the rest of your life. And my ex-wife, uh, while she did work, did not make as much money as I did. And so I am therefore responsible for the rest of my life to pay for her to have an equal um lifestyle to what she had while we were married. Um and that was very scary for me because uh I remember telling her, I'm gonna have just a real sad dad apartment, is what I called it, right? It's probably gonna be a studio or a one bedroom. I'll be sleeping on the couch so my kid can have the other bedroom when he's with me, assuming I get any custody. That was the other fear, right? That I might not have any custody of my child. Um and uh yeah, I was afraid that I would be absolutely financially ruined, potentially for the rest of my life. And while it was nowhere close to free, and it has cost me a lot of money, it wasn't that bad. And there is uh a light at the end of the tunnel. I see, you know, where I can recover. Um, you know, after three years, I'm pretty much outside of the worst of it. And um I imagine in a few more years I'll be uh back to where I was prior to all of this. So five or six years, I guess, after a 17-year marriage doesn't really feel um like that big of a sacrifice in the end of things. Um, but again, not free. It definitely cost me about $1,000, right, to to handle all of this, but it was uh absolutely worth it. I'd pay it twice over to do this again. So uh that was the the biggest fear. The other one would be again, there's a child involved. I do have a teenage son um who at the time was uh preteen, um which is a very, you know, uh delicate age for a child and to go through a divorce, which he's not the first one. I in fact had my parents divorce each other twice while I was growing up, once when I was much younger and once when I was about his age. Um I had some comfort in that, knowing, having been through it myself, knowing that he'd be fine ultimately. And the way that he would be fine was by doing my best to cooperate with my ex-wife on dealing with the child situation. Um, and the the other fear, and some of it came true and some of it didn't, is your relationships with other people, friendships, uh, family, et cetera. Um, and I did lose one or two friends, um, one of which was actually very unexpected. Uh, my best friend, who uh didn't really seem to have really much relationship with my ex-wife at all, and who seemingly had taken, not taken my side, but had been behind me, happy for my transition, happy that I'm happy, uh suddenly just changed and kind of ghosted me. Um and while he never said that's what it was about, I feel like that's what it was about, was his opinion of me changed. So there is a real risk of losing relationships, and that is an unfortunate part, but again, um I do it again, even knowing that to be true. Um, I still have friends, I've made new friends since. My um my group has grown, Alonzo. You're part of that group, right? Um and so life continues to go on. And so I think that's something that we need to remember is uh you're ending something major, especially if you've been doing it for so very long. Um but it's not the end of everything. You're creating something new, it's a new beginning. And if you're doing things right in Polly, it's a new beginning where you're meeting new people and starting new relationships, sometimes romantic, sometimes just friendships, um, but you're being introduced to a new community and many new people. Um which has its own beauty.

SPEAKER_03 38:03

We've all watched um friends of ours go through divorces, monogamous marriages breaking up. How would you compare yourself to that for either one of you? I mean, do you have a comparison with your going from monogamy to poly and ending a monogamous relationship to what most people go through just monogamy to monogamy? Do you have any view on how that looks?

SPEAKER_04 38:30

Uh me personally, uh I I do in the sense that I it was critical to start a new relationship as poly with someone who was open to poly. Neither one of us uh tried to drag our previous partners, previous marriages into poly relationships. Neither one of us made that ultimatum. Um, because I think neither one of us feel that's fair, right? Monogamy isn't wrong. I don't think monogamy is wrong. It's a choice, just like being poly is a choice, right?

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Like putting pineapple on a pizza.

SPEAKER_04 39:16

It's a choice. Right. Right, right. Um and there are people who are poly who choose to be monogamous after time. And there are, you know, in rarer instances, people who are monogamous who decide to be poly over time. Um, however, both partners must be in it and ready to do it. You cannot drag a partner into it. And I think that is a critical realization and something that uh with Cookie and I, we both knew that being poly um would at the very least be uh a consideration for our new relationship, if not a guaranteed uh part of it. Um and along with BDSM. That was also part of it. Um and and I and I think that's critical. You must have that understanding from the get-go. Um converting someone into this lifestyle, I think, is the wrong way to go. It's only gonna end in heartache and pain for both of you, but especially the person that you're trying to drag through into your desires.

SPEAKER_00 40:34

Yeah, I feel like I I agree. I agree with Noah. And then I would also add, you know, it's not just about finding that partner who is compatible with you in terms of um, you know, uh sexual and relationship goals and interests, but also finding a partner that you are able to be vulnerable with and that you know that you can clearly communicate with and you're confident that you um this person understands you. Um because especially when you enter the the poly realm of things, the complexity that's added and the things that you need to talk about and the empathy required is gonna require radical honesty from both of you to really do that right um and to really honor your feelings on things and to allow the possibility of someone to change their mind about anything at any time and and be able and willing to express that um to the other person. Uh and I feel like when you have those initial incompatibilities, you kind of build up um a sense of self that's false, you build up a lot of secrecy, you build up a lot of shame and starting a relationship with someone where that is most certainly not on the table anymore. Um it's kind of like an entirely new context. You get to be yourself, it turns into a journey of exploration together, of honest exploration together, and you get to um, you know, talk about what happened together without worrying that that someone's gonna be upset about it because you tried to sell them on monogamy or poly ahead of time or because, you know, um you just wanted to to play around with something different um after you've been in a specific kind of dynamic for so long. It's it's risky to do that. And and as Noah said, it's it's unfair when you're with a partner who didn't come to that same place as you and maybe instead just isn't a a people-pleasing point of view where they're like, well, I guess I'll try it because you're interested in it. That's a that's a dangerous place to be. Um it's gonna cause a lot of friction, like really in those moments that partner should be expressing to you that they're uncomfortable with that and that incompatibility should be recognized and talked about. And if it cannot be, you know, rectified uh in a cooperative manner, then um, you know, you have to both decide if that is important enough to you that that that is a genuine incompatibility of the relationship and maybe it is better um to leave in it. And it's it's tricky. It's tricky, but uh yeah, I very much agree with Noah. Like this lifestyle is not it's not to be sold to a partner. It it you should find a partner who's already interested in it, um, who's already on that same page and uh yeah, with nothing to peddle. Just just you know.

SPEAKER_03 43:42

But let me ask you both, let me ask you both a final question. I'm gonna have you answer this a different way. I'm gonna ask you both the same question. Okay. A very, very dear friend comes up to you and says, I'm miserable in my marriage. I'm miserable. In the monogamous relationship, I'm in. I don't hate my spouse. I love them. But it doesn't work for me anymore. And I really want to move into a poly lifestyle. We do. Noah? What do I do?

SPEAKER_04 44:22

Well, uh, so I think you need to address this with two stages. One is you're miserable in your marriage. Is it because you want to be poly? Or is it because you're miserable in your marriage for a bunch of other reasons? Um, why do you want to be poly? Now, if we forget about the poly just for a second, if it's just a bunch of marriage problems, maybe you should try to work on that. I tried. Didn't work out. I do think everybody should try to make their marriage work if it's something that they desire to do. But if you are truly unhappy, um life is finite. You're only here once, it only lasts for a little bit of time. Um and while we like to pretend that marriage is some sort of, you know, infinite contract that never ends, um, it's just not true. So if you are truly unhappy and truly ready to move on, then it is only fair for you to make that known to your marriage partner, your spouse, um, and end things. And if you would like to be uh poly, then you should enter into the poly community. Poly SoCal is a great place to start. Um and you know, there's plenty of internet resources out there. Just start googling around, you'll find all sorts of information. Um, and you can try to enter the poly community. There are dating apps out there specifically for for poly. Um and that's what I would recommend to do after you've ended your marriage. Obviously, that's not the way that I necessarily went about things. I'm not saying what I did was perfect. However, um, if I'm going to give someone advice, that's the cleanest way.

SPEAKER_03 46:20

Well, frequently in life, it's don't do it the way I did it because it wasn't quite the best. Yeah. Cookie, what about you? This friend comes up to you they're looking for your words of wisdom. What do you tell them?

SPEAKER_00 46:36

Um, yeah, you know, and it's uh it's funny because after having done this, I have previously had um a very close friend kind of give me a call after she had experienced, you know, meeting someone at a work outing. And she, you know, started to experience some of those thoughts, some of those what-if thoughts, right? You sometimes all it takes is just meeting a person and it will completely just interrupt your whole uh internal world and you'll you'll really start to entertain things um that either you repressed or just didn't even know about. Um and it can really send you into a uh a mental spiral. And I think there's there's a lot to process with those feelings of I'm not, I don't think I'm in the right place. Um and I I agree with Noah, like seeking some support from a therapist, both in, you know, either trying to make your marriage work if you if you do feel like there's a chance and you you just feel like there's some struggles that feel workable, um, maybe it's worth it. Uh I know Alonzo told me, you know, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, you know, like um you had given me some advice. Um, but again, like giving advice is the best that I could offer. I I am not there to give anyone an instructional of how to do it, what to do it, the best approach for them. Um, in addition to going to therapy for the relationship, I think going to therapy for the self is also just as important. Really exploring, like, yeah, like is this about um the fact that you just want Polly? Um, or or is there more to it? Like, what what are you repressing? And really getting to the bottom of of um your struggles that led to the the breakdown that you're currently experiencing in the relationship is is important for you to know um and take with you either when you go on to repair your existing relationship or when you go on to have other relationships, because um it's not like all of your life struggles just go away when you enter a new relationship format. So it's um I think it's important uh, as anyone will tell you, if you end any relationship, hey, you should take a break, you should take some time. Um, it it is the responsible thing to do to just kind of recenter yourself, really get a good idea of what are your goals, what have you been missing, what's been bothering you? Um, you know, uh who are the the people in your life who maybe brought you to question this if there's any, or um, you know, who are the people around you who are maybe making you feel really guilty about leaving this relationship and you know, ask yourself, like, are there other people complicating this for me? Like, am I really making the decision based on what I want? I think those are all really important questions to ask. Um, I think this is a really big internal experience and internal exploration that you go through, especially switching from a full relationship format of monogamy to polyamory. Um and I think you really must, you must know yourself well to do this smoothly and successfully to give yourself the best chance of this working out. Um and then yeah, luckily we we live in a world now where there seems to be a lot of resources to kind of help you connect to communities and other people who have done this. Um and I I love that there are therapists who specialize in in poly things or just non-traditional relationships that you can seek out and really get like a a specific perspective from someone who's really seen a lot of this. And I think um there's a lot of ways you can build your confidence around that decision, even if you know nobody in your life who's done this. Um honestly, like I was kind of in that place. Like it's not like I knew anybody who was poly who was close to me or ever made that choice. Like I was really the only one. Um and in making this choice, like it's not really like I announced it to the world, like a big coming out experience either. I think there's still a lot of people in my life who probably don't even know that I that I did this. Um, and I'm also okay with that too. Um, because again, I'm not in this for the approval of everyone else. I'm I'm in this for my own approval and you know, my happiness and where I want to go with this. Um, and if it pleases other people around me, that's great, but that can't be uh the great deciding factor when it's when it's about my life, you know.

SPEAKER_03 51:13

Very well said. And we have a number of those experts on our show. So listen to some of ours and talk to some of the some of the people that we talk to. We got some good ones coming up. Guys, when I, you know, thought about having you two on tonight, this was obviously the topic that was right. I thank you guys for for going deep and as always being um very candid about your past and your experiences. Yeah, you're awesome. Any last thoughts before we call this one a rap for tonight? Noah, Cookie, you're awesome. Anything we had we need to say that we didn't.

SPEAKER_04 51:48

The only thing I would say is um you know, Cookie had mentioned therapy. Um, couples therapy, if you are in a marriage that you are trying to fix, I think is a great place to start. Um, but I don't think I would have made the choices that I made. And again, these were choices that I feel in my life were extremely positive. As hard as they were to make, as hard as they were to rip the band-aid off. Personal one-on-one therapy with my own therapist um was critical in making this choice. They were on my side, they helped me process a lot of my feelings. Um, and that was huge for me. And I think we now live in a world where therapy is much more accessible and understood and accepted. And I think uh everyone who is struggling even a little bit, maybe if you even if you're not, should consider therapy at least for a little while to help process some things. And especially if you're going something like this, um it can be exactly what you need to make the leap that you're too afraid to make.

SPEAKER_03 52:58

Excellent advice. Okay, any last words?

SPEAKER_00 53:02

Yeah, you know, at the end of the day, it it really comes down to you and what you want and respect for your time and your goals and your life. And um, you know, in addition to all of those therapy resources out there, in the moments that you're actually undergoing a big process, like leaving someone, it's really nice to just have some good friends around, um, really lean on your support system. Um people that you trust, I think will will help you not feel so alone. Um it's really hard to to again build up that that confidence and that bravery to take that step. Um, it's really easy to have ideas and thoughts about leaving someone or leaving a job even or moving to a new place. Um it's a it's a big change and it is scary and it is tempting to try to convince yourself, tell yourself stories about why you should keep doing what you don't like doing just because it's not that bad, or just because, oh, well, maybe things will change, or um, you know, maybe your mom really likes this person or there's some familiar pressure. There's a kid and you don't want to disappoint them like you. Um it's it's really important to yeah, be in touch with yourself, be in touch with your friends, don't isolate yourself. Um don't uh yeah, and don't be too rash, you know. Just really um it's important to to think it out. Anything can happen really fast, um, but you uh you don't want to regret something big that you decide to do. So it's set set yourself up for success and and and do it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 54:52

I think on that note, we will end tonight's call. Noah cookie. It's been awesome having you on yet again. Cookie, we hope we get you back a lot. You gotta give them stats up, get up into some of the some of the high views. I can't be the bottom bottom, you know. Hi, Melonzo Banks. This has been the Polly So Cow Podcast. Good night, everybody. So come, probably so come. Come on, this will probably so come, come and come this room is probably right. Twenty twenty-five, three.